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 Post subject: birth control
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:35 pm 
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Please bear with me, a newbie.

As I understand it using condoms or other birth control measures is contrary to God's desire for us to "be fruitful and multiply." However, to use NFP is not sinful.

What I am wondering is how to distinguish the intentional "thwarting" of pregnancy through NFP from that of using condoms. Isn't the intention of both actions the same?

What's the best authority on this topic?

And what exactly is NFP?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:17 pm 
Let's start at the end and go up :).

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And what exactly is NFP?


NFP or (Natural Family Planning) is a technique, in line with the Church's teaching on contraception (we'll get to that in a sec), to space children or to help conceive a child. The method uses a women's basal body temperature (and other physical sign, won't go into ;)) to determine when she is most likely to be fertile. It is 99.9% effective when practiced properly.

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As I understand it using condoms or other birth control measures is contrary to God's desire for us to "be fruitful and multiply." However, to use NFP is not sinful.


Yes, a better way to describe it is that God created the conjugal act to have two inseparable functions within marriage: procreation and the unity of the couple. Therefore, every conjugal act MUST have both of these components to be within God's will. When using NFP, one abstains during the fertile time thus avoiding pregnancy but still fulfilling the procreative and unitive aspects of the act becasue there is no block to the pregnancy. The conjugal act is occurring during an infertile time of the month. Artificial contraception, however, blocks the procreative aspect of the act thereby rendering it sinful. True love is always open to life and is fruitful. Sex is the ultimate expression of self-donative love between a couple. When the fruitfulness of the act is blocked - it becomes an act of pleaseure, only. Under these circumstances, the act becomes inherently selfish - and love is never selfish:
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Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 1 Corinthians 13:4-7


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What I am wondering is how to distinguish the intentional "thwarting" of pregnancy through NFP from that of using condoms. Isn't the intention of both actions the same?


It is a difference of means and ends. NFP and contraception have the same end - avoiding pregnancy. BUT one employs licit means (NFP) and the other sinful means (contraception). Furthermore, NFP can be used illicitly when it is used to inordinately avoid pregnancy (say for selfish reasons.)

Good sources - The Magisterium of the Catholic Church. YOu can find its teaching in Humanae Vitae and the Catechism of the Catholic Church #2370. Really 2366-2372. (These numbers designate the paragraph (or article) numbers within the Catechism.)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:32 pm 
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Yes, I just read Humanae Vitae and it was helpful - especially the bit about Christ and the Church welcoming sinners and not letting our weaknesses discourage the practice of our faith.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:41 pm 
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Please forgive any inappropriateness this question has:

So, would "pulling out" be considered sinful?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:51 pm 
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ErikB wrote:
Please forgive any inappropriateness this question has:

So, would "pulling out" be considered sinful?


I would say yes, as the fruitful end of the act wasn't consummated naturally (any other answers better than mine would probably be more greatly appreciated). My husband and I planned around my cycle, and although we've only been blessed with one child (we've tried for years for others), the end results would have been hampered if he had "pulled out" so to speak. It's not natural at all, and wouldn't have bound us closer. God wants us to have our children in accordance with His plan.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:52 pm 
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Pulling out is immoral. God whacked Onan for it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:04 am 
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I have also heard that even NFP shouldn't be used if the couple didn't have valid reasons for wanting to delay pregnancy.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:13 am 
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"Pulling Out" or Coitus Interruptus is basically mutual masturbation if you think about it. At the conclusion of the marital act, the seed must be put in its proper place which is only the wife's vagina.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:38 am 
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levitcus 15 not only covers the "impurity" of secretions, ESPECIALLY the "pull out" or "masterbate" ones, but declares the man to be in defilement-----and has to make ATONEMENT with both a sin and a burnt offering---(THESE ARE VERY IMPOROTANT)

since it is the man who gives 'LIFE' and the woman who gives 'BIRTH', the mans "sinful" secretion is viewed by God as similar to "abortion"---a man can commit "abortion" by masterbation.

God gave us these bodies, not to desecrate it or another---but to be HOLY....

as a believer---we are supposed to be sanctified-----and any semen that dosnt go into our wife----with consent of both----is SIN---

and needs to be atoned for...

I am not a woman---so I havent "read up on" what she must do---but it is in the bible also----and am sure it is no different----

there is nothing wrong with "relations"---GOD made us, and gave the "joy" for us to have pleasure---

HOWEVER----that doesnt mean to get the joy "unbiblically" and WHENEVER WE FEEL LIKE IT.....male or female....

MARRIAGE IS THE MOST HOLY THING---the bible is a marriage covenant of JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD and HIS BRIDE(beleivers).,...

God does NOT look at these things lightly----at least ONE WHOLE CHAPTER is covering just this one topic-----and all the other references to "adultery, fornication".....God DOES NOT LIKE ANY OF IT......

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:58 am 
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How does one explain/deal with nocturnal emissions (a.k.a. wet dreams)? In that case the "seed" is still not "placed" where it should be, but it's not exactly the man's fault.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:07 am 
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ErikB wrote:
How does one explain/deal with nocturnal emissions (a.k.a. wet dreams)? In that case the "seed" is still not "placed" where it should be, but it's not exactly the man's fault.


This is a nonmoral action since it is not willed. It is in the same category as a miscarriage.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:55 pm 
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forumjunkie wrote:
ErikB wrote:
How does one explain/deal with nocturnal emissions (a.k.a. wet dreams)? In that case the "seed" is still not "placed" where it should be, but it's not exactly the man's fault.


This is a nonmoral action since it is not willed. It is in the same category as a miscarriage.

FJ


There is a common misunderstanding of the terms ritual impurity or uncleanness. They are not the same as immorality or sin. According to the holiness requirements in the book of Leviticus any emission of semen results in ritual impurity, even a nocturnal emission or normal intercourse with one's wife! It has nothing to do with sin; although some acts could be both sinful and cause ritual impurity/uncleanness.

It is not in the Bible, but the Jewish tradition before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70, was that someone had to keep the high priest awake on the night before Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) to prevent an accidental emission of semen in his sleep which would render him ritually impure and unable to perform the Yom Kippur rituals which only he could do.


Edward Pothier


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:38 pm 
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allegro54 wrote:
I have also heard that even NFP shouldn't be used if the couple didn't have valid reasons for wanting to delay pregnancy.


That's a little loose of a definition--we are supposed to use our discretion to decide whether or not our reasons for delaying or preventing pregnancy are valid. In an article I just read from the Catholic Educator's Resource Center, then-Cardinal Ratzinger says, "Those are questions that ought to be discussed with one's spiritual director, with one's priest, because they can't be projected into the abstract", meaning that we cannot hard and fast say that prevention is only licit when. . . .

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:15 pm 
It is called the rythom method,when a woman is less fertile.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 5:31 pm 
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Modern NFP methods are not the same as the old calendar rhythm method.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:48 pm 
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I just read Leviticus 15. Wow I had no idea the Bible was so detailed in this matter.

What do we make of the "impure for 7 days" statements? Also, it says (32) "This is the law for the man who is afflicted with cronic flow, or who has an emission of seed" They do not specify the moral emission of seed.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:34 pm 
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FaithNinja wrote:
I just read Leviticus 15. Wow I had no idea the Bible was so detailed in this matter.

What do we make of the "impure for 7 days" statements? Also, it says (32) "This is the law for the man who is afflicted with cronic flow, or who has an emission of seed" They do not specify the moral emission of seed.


Although there still are moral matters involved with sex, I wish to make clear that I was not implying in my previous post that the ritual impurity regulations of the "Old Testament" are still binding on Christians.


Edward Pothier


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:28 pm 
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By the way, in my post up there I meant "prevention" using NFP.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:46 am 
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although it is correct that being ceremonially unclean was not sin, the word leprosy in hebrew is rooted from a word that means "to strike" or be stricken from God.

the approach of this---AS DICTATED BY God TO MOSES, was to serve as an illustration of sin itself--in the spiritual sense....

here are a couple verse to show what I am trying to say....

in God'S incictment to Israel over its sins...

Isaiah 1:6
From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness---only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.

an illustrative application to CHRISTS BLOOD atonement is found in levitcus 14:14, where blood had to be applied from ear, to the hand, to the foot---signifying that the whole body was now cleansed.

Does this mean we have to take blood and heal ourselves physically---NO.

what it shows is a foreshadowing of how CHRIST blood cleansed our spiritual state from the "open wounds, leprosy style state" our spirits are inflicted with because of sin. And only the blood of CHRIST can cleanse it...

the levitical law is part of the bible the jews call "torah"

the word torah means "revelation"---not law(nomos)

the jews call their "old testament" tanakh---which is an acronym for the 3 sections of their bible...

A) torah----which is "revelation"
B) nevi'im---which means "prophets"
C) ketuvi'in---which means "writings"

put all 3 together and what does it say?

the "revelation" of "prophetic" writings....

and who is this revelation---the MESSIAH/CHRIST---JESUS our LORD.

the levitical law has CHRIST WRITTEN THROUGH AND THROUGH---and any jewish christian will tell you the same----

it is a book that now is not a book of condemnation and separation---but now becomes a book of "at one ment"----ATONEMENT.---a JOY to all who "see" its meanings...

every single scripture leads to CALVARY---no matter where it is in the bible---because THE WORD is literally JESUS....

He authored it.

here is another verse on how leprosy's cleansing in leviticus 13 is illustrative as sin....

psalm 51:7(very popular psalm for repentence)
Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be white as snow.

"hyssop" was used in cleansing the house of the leper(lev 14:49)

Moses used hyssop to sprinkle blood on the "scroll" and the people after he had "proclaimed every commandment" to the people, after he received it from God on Sinai... the sprinkling of blood made the covenant "authentic" to God...
just like CHRISTS BLOOD---

and was "hyssop" represented at Calvary----oh--you bet it was---very importantly...

just before HE said, "it is finished"---he received a drink of wine vinegar...

john 19:29-30....

when the wine vinegar touched his lips---it was complete....

there is much more significance in the hyssop and wine vinegar---but right now---I'd take up 3 pages...

I recommend--if anyone is interested in "details" and "foreshadowings" and find JOY in them----to research each thing used or mentioned in the life of CHRIST---

every single item has a physical and spiritual application---found in the bible....

this is the JOY jewish christians find in the life of CHRIST/YESHUA.

and if someone is "called" to minister to jews----you WILL NOT BE ABLE to without the deep true understandings of both CHRIST and the "shadow" of him in the old testament....

its is amazing how someone could have ALL THIS before them(jews), and still NOT SEE....(some do---most dont)---the same with gentiles----very few see--most dont.

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