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 Post subject: Re: What good came of Vatican 2?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:21 pm 
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We must not assume that correlation = causation.

Has the Church's influence is society declined? Without a doubt.

Has the Church had some very serious problems over the last 30+ years? Again, without a doubt.

Did these things start with Vatican II? No.

Vatican II was a symptom of a huge underlying problem bubbling to the surface.

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 Post subject: Re: What good came of Vatican 2?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:46 pm 
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But because of its status as an ecumenical council, it went beyond being merely a symptom of some of the bad trends in the Church to becoming the decisive moment at which those trends triumphed.

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 Post subject: Re: What good came of Vatican 2?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:35 pm 
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In the tumult of the 1960s, the world could have used a stable institution that didn't change with the times. But Vatican II came along and changed everything.

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 Post subject: Re: What good came of Vatican 2?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:57 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
But because of its status as an ecumenical council, it went beyond being merely a symptom of some of the bad trends in the Church to becoming the decisive moment at which those trends triumphed.


The same could be said about The Council of Nicea, a council that actually has the effect of making the problem It took 3 more ecumenical councils in the next century to fix all the unintended consequences. But that doesn't mean it was a bad council or that it shouldn't have been held.

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 Post subject: Re: What good came of Vatican 2?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:36 pm 
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Doom wrote:
gherkin wrote:
But because of its status as an ecumenical council, it went beyond being merely a symptom of some of the bad trends in the Church to becoming the decisive moment at which those trends triumphed.


The same could be said about The Council of Nicea, a council that actually has the effect of making the problem It took 3 more ecumenical councils in the next century to fix all the unintended consequences. But that doesn't mean it was a bad council or that it shouldn't have been held.

No, it couldn't. Those bad trends triumphed despite Nicea. It's almost exactly the opposite case.

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 Post subject: Re: What good came of Vatican 2?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:42 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Doom wrote:
gherkin wrote:
But because of its status as an ecumenical council, it went beyond being merely a symptom of some of the bad trends in the Church to becoming the decisive moment at which those trends triumphed.


The same could be said about The Council of Nicea, a council that actually has the effect of making the problem It took 3 more ecumenical councils in the next century to fix all the unintended consequences. But that doesn't mean it was a bad council or that it shouldn't have been held.

No, it couldn't. Those bad trends triumphed despite Nicea. It's almost exactly the opposite case.

That's correct. Aryans like Eusebius of Nicomedia (the man who baptized Constantine) spent the rest of their lives looking for holes in the Nicene Creed.


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