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 Post subject: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:09 am 
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Can God perform a miracle even if it may not lead the person to true faith?

Perhaps it's for others to get closer to Him?

Say for example miracles that happen in Eastern Orthdox?

Or something more far part like a pagan religion?

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:31 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Can God perform a miracle even if it may not lead the person to true faith?

Certainly. Consider the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes. Did everyone who partook of that meal become a Christian? Probably not.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:09 pm 
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"Can God perform a miracle even if it may not lead the person to true faith?"

Yes He can, and He knows when and why to do so.

I have many DVDs on lives of the saints, and I have one called "The Cokeville Miracle" It is based on a true story. The Christians involved were not Catholics. This is what it says on the cover of the DVD under the title:

136 children, 18 teachers, 2 terrorists, 1 bomb,....we need a miracle. It happened in 1986 in Cokeville WY.

It truly was a most unusual miracle!


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:41 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Can God perform a miracle even if it may not lead the person to true faith?

Perhaps it's for others to get closer to Him?

Say for example miracles that happen in Eastern Orthdox?

Or something more far part like a pagan religion?

I would argue that the Orthodox churches had the true Faith, and that after the lifting of excommunications that we are now one Church, but that it hasn’t “sunk in” yet. I believe that the reunification has essentially occurred.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:58 am 
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Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
I would argue that the Orthodox churches had the true Faith, and that after the lifting of excommunications that we are now one Church, but that it hasn’t “sunk in” yet. I believe that the reunification has essentially occurred.


We've got a ways to go and I don't think we are united in any real sense of the term.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:49 pm 
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Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Can God perform a miracle even if it may not lead the person to true faith?

Perhaps it's for others to get closer to Him?

Say for example miracles that happen in Eastern Orthdox?

Or something more far part like a pagan religion?

I would argue that the Orthodox churches had the true Faith, and that after the lifting of excommunications that we are now one Church, but that it hasn’t “sunk in” yet. I believe that the reunification has essentially occurred.

This answer assumes that the cause of the schism were the mutual excommunications of 1054 and that the schism can be traced to that specific date. This is a gross oversimplification

1054 is not a significant date, the excommunication referred only to the two specific people involved, and the incident was completely forgotten for centuries until researchers dug it up in the 19th century and started to claim that it all came down to that date. But that was clearly nonsense.

Actual, knowledgeable historians generally date the final rupture between East and West much later, some not until as late the 18th century. But even of we don't place it quite that late, it is clear that while relations were strained East and West were still in some kind of communion at least until the fall Iof Constantinople in 1453, because they kept appealing to the West for military aid against the Ottoman Turks. And in fact, the idea of a crusade to liberate Constantinople from the Turks continued to animate the minds of delusional idealists until the Council of Trent.

As for the causes, well...they are complex and involve differences of culture, political systems, language and the difficulties involved in long distance communication before the modern era of mass communication.

Over time, East and West evolved in different directions, I'm time, it became difficult to even have a conversation because East and West were no longer even speaking the same theological language. It would be nice if it could all be traced to some silly misunderstanding I'm the year 1054, but life is just not that cut and dried.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:33 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Servant of Guadalupe wrote:
I would argue that the Orthodox churches had the true Faith, and that after the lifting of excommunications that we are now one Church, but that it hasn’t “sunk in” yet. I believe that the reunification has essentially occurred.


We've got a ways to go and I don't think we are united in any real sense of the term.


Not if you are truly Orthodox.

Rome is going to have to back up all the way to 799 AD, before Charlemagne and the Franks hijacked the Latin Patriarchate and introduced the Filioque. Then there must be an eighth ecumenical council of both East and West in which all the teachings of East and West are thrown on the table, discussed, and prayed over.


https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/h ... _do_part_1

https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/h ... _do_part_2


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:09 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Rome is going to have to back up all the way to 799 AD, before Charlemagne and the Franks hijacked the Latin Patriarchate and introduced the Filioque. Then there must be an eighth ecumenical council of both East and West in which all the teachings of East and West are thrown on the table, discussed, and prayed over.

A future ecumenical council would be the 22nd. But you knew that already.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:26 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Rome is going to have to back up all the way to 799 AD, before Charlemagne and the Franks hijacked the Latin Patriarchate and introduced the Filioque. Then there must be an eighth ecumenical council of both East and West in which all the teachings of East and West are thrown on the table, discussed, and prayed over.

A future ecumenical council would be the 22nd. But you knew that already.


Uhhhh.....no. Ecumenical means the whole Church. No Orthodox participated in the Roman Catholic councils such as Trent. I think we could say that the last truly ecumenical council was Florence


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:36 pm 
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The Catholic Church is the whole Church.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 9:09 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Rome is going to have to back up all the way to 799 AD, before Charlemagne and the Franks hijacked the Latin Patriarchate and introduced the Filioque. Then there must be an eighth ecumenical council of both East and West in which all the teachings of East and West are thrown on the table, discussed, and prayed over.

A future ecumenical council would be the 22nd. But you knew that already.


Uhhhh.....no. Ecumenical means the whole Church. No Orthodox participated in the Roman Catholic councils such as Trent. I think we could say that the last truly ecumenical council was Florence


What does one mean by participation? Participation doesn't mean they attended the Council, otherwise, we would have to reject Councils that didn't have every region represented. Sometimes, attendance was difficult due to conflict or political reasons. Even some Popes didn't attend some Councils.

I know you speak only of Ecumenical Councils but at what point is it no longer participation? Because even when Popes were silent, it was counted as participation because he didn't object to what was proposed.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:26 pm 
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The Orthodox definition of ecumenical council is funny especially in the light of the circumstances of the First Council of Constantinople, where there were NO western bishops present, no papal legates, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 2:18 pm 
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:popcorn

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2021 12:25 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Rome is going to have to back up all the way to 799 AD, before Charlemagne and the Franks hijacked the Latin Patriarchate and introduced the Filioque. Then there must be an eighth ecumenical council of both East and West in which all the teachings of East and West are thrown on the table, discussed, and prayed over.

A future ecumenical council would be the 22nd. But you knew that already.


Uhhhh.....no. Ecumenical means the whole Church. No Orthodox participated in the Roman Catholic councils such as Trent. I think we could say that the last truly ecumenical council was Florence


And Lyons II before that. Both of which saw the Easterners present agreeing on the Church’s teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:33 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Light of the East wrote:
Rome is going to have to back up all the way to 799 AD, before Charlemagne and the Franks hijacked the Latin Patriarchate and introduced the Filioque. Then there must be an eighth ecumenical council of both East and West in which all the teachings of East and West are thrown on the table, discussed, and prayed over.

A future ecumenical council would be the 22nd. But you knew that already.


Uhhhh.....no. Ecumenical means the whole Church. No Orthodox participated in the Roman Catholic councils such as Trent. I think we could say that the last truly ecumenical council was Florence


And Lyons II before that. Both of which saw the Easterners present agreeing on the Church’s teaching.


There are "Easterners" and there are "Easterners." St. Mark of Ephesus refused to go along with Florence. The rest of the Orthodox did, and when the laity of Constantinople found out, there were riots in the streets. Rome has not been interested in finding common ground for centuries. It has been "my way or the highway." In the Eastern Catholic Church, we experienced this in spades in the 20th century as the Irish bishops of Roman Catholicism caused major headaches for the Eastern Catholic bishops.

Pope Boniface VIII could be the poster boy for Latin arrogance. I'm with King Louis IV of France on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:13 pm 
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If I may say so, the "my way or the highway" attitude exists on both sides. Or which of the contested issues do you think the Orthodox will yield on?

Some might even call it a commitment to the Truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:02 am 
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What specific obstacles stand in the way of the re-uniting of the Church? And who is it that upholds those obstacles?


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:50 pm 
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Good questions. One might also then ask what compromises/adaptations the Orthodox might be willing to make on these points.

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:45 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
If I may say so, the "my way or the highway" attitude exists on both sides. Or which of the contested issues do you think the Orthodox will yield on?

Some might even call it a commitment to the Truth.


Yes, there are the Traddydox who think that all non-Othodox are going to break hell wide open (especially Roman Catholics) and there are the Dimond Bros types of Roman Catholics. It seems that neither one of these types wishes to accept the miracles which God, in His unrestricted and free grace, has performed on the other side of the aisle.

Fr. Thomas Hopko wrote an article on reunion in which he said that there would be things that the Orthodox would have to change, but he didn't go into specifics. Kinda wish he had.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:47 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
What specific obstacles stand in the way of the re-uniting of the Church? And who is it that upholds those obstacles?


I will link you to what Fr. Thomas Hopko said in this regard, speaking as an Orthodox priest:

https://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/or ... tian_unity


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