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 Post subject: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Father?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:04 am 
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And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil.


Am I wrong in thinking it is just egotistical audacity on the part of Pope Francis to actually think his phrasing of the Our Father is better than Our Savior’s? Better than the Son of Our Father?

If I’m just being uncharitable then I would love to be corrected. I’ve had enough frustrations with this papacy to last a life time. And I know it does no good for my soul to be angry when it’s unwarranted.

But at the moment – I’m angry.

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:09 am 
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Are you talking about the Italian translation that was changed after the Pope's comments about how it wasn't good?

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:45 pm 
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Let's be honest here it is an open secret among New Testament translators that not only the Our Father but many traditional translations a famous New Testament passages are inaccurate or less accurate than they should be. Look at any new testament translation that's modern by modern I mean after 1950 and look at how they translate the Our Father. Very few use the traditional wording. Consider for example the 1986 revised New Testament. NAB. Which translates " do not subject us to the final test" pretty much all Greek scholars agree that this is a better translation.

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:51 pm 
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But the prayer at Mass is translated from Latin, and the Latin is indeed "Lead us not into temptation."

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:46 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Let's be honest here it is an open secret among New Testament translators that not only the Our Father but many traditional translations a famous New Testament passages are inaccurate or less accurate than they should be. Look at any new testament translation that's modern by modern I mean after 1950 and look at how they translate the Our Father. Very few use the traditional wording. Consider for example the 1986 revised New Testament. NAB. Which translates " do not subject us to the final test" pretty much all Greek scholars agree that this is a better translation.
That's not accurate, at least not from the Greek scholars I have read. Could you cite some examples? As far as I can tell, the most accurate translation is the traditional one.

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:03 pm 
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The Greek of Matt. 6:13a is καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν (kaì mḕ eisenégkēs hēmȃs eis peirasmón). There is no way to render that sentence ‘do not subject us to the final test,’ except by a very loose translation. In the sentence mḕ is a negation (‘not’), while the verb eisenégkēs (or eisphérō) means ‘to lead into.’ The verb is active, and the text literally says ‘and do not (mḕ) lead (eisenégkēs) us (hēmȃs) into (eis) temptation (peirasmón).’ That is the most straightforward way to translate the text.

Of course this does not mean ‘do not tempt us.’ But it does mean that God may let us be tested or tempted, and that we ought to pray for that not to happen. God can lead someone into temptation or testing, and that is exactly what he dod with Christ, as we see in Matt. 4:1: “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.” When we pray ‘lead us not into temptation/testing,’ we are asking God not do do with us what he did with Christ.

EDIT Feb. 7: I changed a typo above. πειρασμόν should be transliterated as peirasmón, not perrasmón.

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Last edited by Closet Catholic on Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:05 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Which translates " do not subject us to the final test" pretty much all Greek scholars agree that this is a better translation.

I doubt it.

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:12 pm 
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Closet Catholic wrote:
The Greek of Matt. 6:13a is καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν (kaì mḕ eisenégkēs hēmȃs eis perrasmón). There is no way to render that sentence ‘do not subject us to the final test,’ except by a very loose translation. In the sentence mḕ is a negation (‘not’), while the verb eisenégkēs (or eisphérō) means ‘to lead into.’ The verb is active, and the text literally says ‘and do not (mḕ) lead (eisenégkēs) us (hēmȃs) into (eis) temptation (perrasmón).’ That is the most straightforward way to translate the text.

Of course this does not mean ‘do not tempt us.’ But it does mean that God may let us be tested or tempted, and that we ought to pray for that not to happen. God can lead someone into temptation or testing, and that is exactly what he dod with Christ, as we see in Matt. 4:1: “Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.” When we pray ‘lead us not into temptation/testing,’ we are asking God not do do with us what he did with Christ.


Woah.
This is very helpful.

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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:43 pm 
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this isn't really a problem for me since it's not a problem in the latin mass.

but is this problematic for the pope to change it in the vernacular (of ANY language)?

Well... what does Matthew look like in the Latin Vulgate?
Matthew 6-13:

sic ergo vos orabitis Pater noster qui in caelis es sanctificetur nomen tuum veniat regnum tuum fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimisimus debitoribus nostris et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo

and Luke 11:4:
et dimitte nobis peccata nostra siquidem et ipsi dimittimus omni debenti nobis et ne nos inducas in temptationem


inducas --- not going through a whole conjugation, but this is 'to lead' or 'to persuade'.

In Italian --- "...e non ci indurre in tentazione"

What the pope want to change it to?

"e non abbandonarci all tentatzione."


Hasn't this already been discussed before here? Is it right/wrong/good/bad/ugly/don't care?

Don't forget about his changing the Gloria, too. #eyeroll.


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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:46 pm 
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either way you look at it (nice follow up by CC) .... the pontiff's change doesn't follow the Greek, the Latin, or even Doom.

"do not abandon us to temptation"

??

yeah, no. but whatevs.


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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:06 pm 
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I always thought it was a little girl, praying for her little brother to get into trouble; "Lead a snot into temptation, but deliver US from evil."


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 Post subject: Re: Any valid reasons for Pope Francis changing the Our Fath
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:50 pm 
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This is why I continue to follow DCF. Opinions, biases, actual information, questions, answers of varying validity (nice alliteration, eh?), nonsense, aloof dismissal, non sequuntur, bemusement --- the best of all worlds.

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