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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:47 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
gherkin wrote:
. I cringe a biti


Honestly, there has never been and likely never will be, a dramatization of the life of. Christ that isn't cringe. Compare The Greatest Story Ever Told (ironically one of the worst movies ever made), or Roma Downey's "The Bible" series a few years ago, from which the theatrical film "Son of God" was released to theaters, both are pure cringe. Even Franco Zeffirelli's "Jesus of Nazareth" and Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"( probably the two best dramatizations) have moments that are pure cringe,such as the ludicrous scene in Zeffirelli's film where Jesus has a bar mitzvah, a Jewish tradition that arose in the Late Middle Ages.

What The Chosen has that most dramatizations severely lack is a ln actual understanding of narrative structure and how to frame a scene. And production values that are equal to any major Hollywood studio Oscar bait film.


Agreed on most except for "Passion". I think it was the exception - I didn't find it cringey at all. "Tear-jerking and intense" would be my description.


Really? The entire anachronistic "Jesus invents the table" scene doesn't seem cringe to you?

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:48 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Pro-Zak wrote:
Since Jesus was/is both fully God and fully human, how could he be portrayed as "too human?"


Foibles, insecurities, mistakes


His not knowing what he wanted The Sermon on the Mount to be and asking his disciples for advice.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:10 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
gherkin wrote:
. I cringe a biti


Honestly, there has never been and likely never will be, a dramatization of the life of. Christ that isn't cringe. Compare The Greatest Story Ever Told (ironically one of the worst movies ever made), or Roma Downey's "The Bible" series a few years ago, from which the theatrical film "Son of God" was released to theaters, both are pure cringe. Even Franco Zeffirelli's "Jesus of Nazareth" and Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"( probably the two best dramatizations) have moments that are pure cringe,such as the ludicrous scene in Zeffirelli's film where Jesus has a bar mitzvah, a Jewish tradition that arose in the Late Middle Ages.

What The Chosen has that most dramatizations severely lack is a ln actual understanding of narrative structure and how to frame a scene. And production values that are equal to any major Hollywood studio Oscar bait film.


Agreed on most except for "Passion". I think it was the exception - I didn't find it cringey at all. "Tear-jerking and intense" would be my description.


Really? The entire anachronistic "Jesus invents the table" scene doesn't seem cringe to you?


Not any more cringey than Shakespeare’s bell ringing in Julius Caesar.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 11:14 pm 
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Doom wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
Pro-Zak wrote:
Since Jesus was/is both fully God and fully human, how could he be portrayed as "too human?"


Foibles, insecurities, mistakes


His not knowing what he wanted The Sermon on the Mount to be and asking his disciples for advice.


Sometimes leaders ask advice from subordinates not because they need input, but rather they are trying to help the subordinates learn to think about something.

I would need to understand the context.

That being said, other than what I said above, Jesus wouldn’t need anybody’s advice or help. Of that we agree.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:22 am 
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It's a good point, especially since in the Chosen, Jesus specifically asked Matthew to help him, and Matthew is portrayed as kind of needing a fair bit of work, given his background.

However, the storyline appears to make it clear that Jesus is struggling with the material.

I am not 100% convinced that can't be fit with the truth of who Jesus is. Perhaps he really did kind of "turn on" the human nature's (so to speak) independent intellect and allow it to work through the composition of the Sermon. I dunno.

Maybe I'm just getting soft with old age, but I am not finding myself worrying too much about the theology in this series. It seems basically on point, and more or less it's a dramatization with a lot of liberties so...whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:12 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
It's a good point, especially since in the Chosen, Jesus specifically asked Matthew to help him, and Matthew is portrayed as kind of needing a fair bit of work, given his background.

However, the storyline appears to make it clear that Jesus is struggling with the material.

I am not 100% convinced that can't be fit with the truth of who Jesus is. Perhaps he really did kind of "turn on" the human nature's (so to speak) independent intellect and allow it to work through the composition of the Sermon. I dunno.

Maybe I'm just getting soft with old age, but I am not finding myself worrying too much about the theology in this series. It seems basically on point, and more or less it's a dramatization with a lot of liberties so...whatever.


I would add that in the LOTR there is a quote, "Christ learned the art of warfare when he overcame the world, as he said: “I have overcome the world” (Saint Hilary)

In addition, Hebrews 5:8–10 says: "Although he was a son, [Jesus] learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek."

Perhaps the quote and verse are speaking to Christ human-nature?

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:36 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
gherkin wrote:
. I cringe a biti


Honestly, there has never been and likely never will be, a dramatization of the life of. Christ that isn't cringe. Compare The Greatest Story Ever Told (ironically one of the worst movies ever made), or Roma Downey's "The Bible" series a few years ago, from which the theatrical film "Son of God" was released to theaters, both are pure cringe. Even Franco Zeffirelli's "Jesus of Nazareth" and Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"( probably the two best dramatizations) have moments that are pure cringe,such as the ludicrous scene in Zeffirelli's film where Jesus has a bar mitzvah, a Jewish tradition that arose in the Late Middle Ages.

What The Chosen has that most dramatizations severely lack is a ln actual understanding of narrative structure and how to frame a scene. And production values that are equal to any major Hollywood studio Oscar bait film.


Agreed on most except for "Passion". I think it was the exception - I didn't find it cringey at all. "Tear-jerking and intense" would be my description.


Really? The entire anachronistic "Jesus invents the table" scene doesn't seem cringe to you?



Also, cringe is the wildly over-the-top and unrealistic nature of the violence inflicted against Jesus. The Romans did not use a whip designed to tear off the skin and eventually kill the offender if it continued for too long, this is completely ahistorical. We know how the Romans did this, the scourging was severe, but being that it was done for lighter offenses unworthy of the death penalty, it was done in such a way as to ensure that those inflicted would survive. indeed, some were given the choice of their punishment and chose to be scourged because it was the least severe of the options. Sure, it would have weakened him, but it would not have torn off his skin and exposed his internal organs, at worst, he would have had to spend a week in bed resting to recover. Harsh, but survivable. And, I don't know if you believe in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, but I'm pretty sure Mel Gibson does, and the Shroud doesn't show that Jesus endured anything like what is shown in the film. I don't know why Gibson felt the need to make the violence so unrealistically graphic.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:39 pm 
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Peetem wrote:

I would add that in LOTR there is a quote, "Christ learned the art of warfare when he overcame the world, as he said: “I have overcome the world” (Saint Hilary)


Do you mean the Liturgy of the Hours? Because I can assure you there is no reference to Christ in The Lord of the Rings, nor could there be since it takes place thousands of years before Christ was born. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:41 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
In addition, Hebrews 5:8–10 says: "Although he was a son, [Jesus] learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek."

Perhaps the quote and verse are speaking to Christ human-nature?

Christ did not learn anything from anyone even in His human nature.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:16 pm 
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Christ struggling with how to preach and asking others so He can "learn" sounds basically like a denial that He always possessed the Beatific Vision and as a result He could be ignorant of things.
Christ being ignorant has been condemned by the Church and Pope Pius XII teaches that Christ always possessed the Beatific Vision.

Quote:
“If anyone says that the one Jesus Christ who is both true Son of God and true Son of man did not know the future or the day of the Last Judgment and that he could know only as much as the divinity, dwelling in him as in another, revealed to him, anathema sit.” (Pope Vigilius, Constitutum I of 14 May 553)

The following proposition is condemned: “The natural meaning of the Gospel texts cannot be reconciled with what our theologians teach about the consciousness and the infallible knowledge of Jesus Christ.” (Pope Pius X, Lamentabili of 1907)

The following proposition is condemned: “A critic cannot assert that Christ’s knowledge was unlimited, unless by making the hypothesis, which is historically inconceivable and morally repugnant, that Christ as man had God’s knowledge and yet was unwilling to communicate so much knowledge to his disciples and posterity.” (Pope Pius X, Lamentabili of 1907)

The following proposition is rejected: “The opinion cannot be declared certain, which holds that the soul of Christ was ignorant of nothing but from the beginning knew in the Word everything, past, present and future, that is to say everything which God knows with the ‘knowledge of vision’.” (Pope Benedict XV, Decree of the Holy Office of 1918)

The following proposition is rejected: “The recent opinion of some about the limited knowledge of the soul of Christ is not to be less favoured in Catholic schools than the ancient opinion about his universal knowledge.” (Pope Benedict XV, Decree of the Holy Office of 1918)

“The knowledge and love of our Divine Redeemer, of which we were the object from the first moment of His Incarnation, exceed all the human intellect can hope to grasp. For hardly was He conceived in the womb of the Mother of God, when He began to enjoy the beatific vision, and in that vision all the members of His Mystical Body were continually and unceasingly present to Him, and He embraced them with His redeeming love.” (Pius XII, Mystici Corporis 75)


https://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot ... -from.html

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:49 pm 
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Christ being ignorant in His humanity was condemned by St. Gregory the Great iirc

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:07 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Christ being ignorant in His humanity was condemned by St. Gregory the Great iirc


I would love to add that to the list there if we could find it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:16 pm 
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http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot. ... human.html

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:27 am 
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Doom wrote:
Also, cringe is the wildly over-the-top and unrealistic nature of the violence inflicted against Jesus. The Romans did not use a whip designed to tear off the skin and eventually kill the offender if it continued for too long, this is completely ahistorical. We know how the Romans did this, the scourging was severe, but being that it was done for lighter offenses unworthy of the death penalty, it was done in such a way as to ensure that those inflicted would survive. indeed, some were given the choice of their punishment and chose to be scourged because it was the least severe of the options. Sure, it would have weakened him, but it would not have torn off his skin and exposed his internal organs, at worst, he would have had to spend a week in bed resting to recover. Harsh, but survivable. And, I don't know if you believe in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, but I'm pretty sure Mel Gibson does, and the Shroud doesn't show that Jesus endured anything like what is shown in the film. I don't know why Gibson felt the need to make the violence so unrealistically graphic.


I have heard more it more than once that Christ died quickly because he was scourged so severely - and I heard these arguments long before the Passion of the Christ was released.

But then there's this (and more like it): http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/FacciniWeb.pdf

Lots of debate about this, so I don't think your comments are absolute; its up for discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:30 am 
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Doom wrote:
Peetem wrote:

I would add that in LOTR there is a quote, "Christ learned the art of warfare when he overcame the world, as he said: “I have overcome the world” (Saint Hilary)


Do you mean the Liturgy of the Hours? Because I can assure you there is no reference to Christ in The Lord of the Rings, nor could there be since it takes place thousands of years before Christ was born. :)


Oh my, I can't believe I did that! ::):

Yes, I mean LOTH.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:56 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2013/09/pope-st-gregory-great-on-human.html


Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:48 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Doom wrote:
Also, cringe is the wildly over-the-top and unrealistic nature of the violence inflicted against Jesus. The Romans did not use a whip designed to tear off the skin and eventually kill the offender if it continued for too long, this is completely ahistorical. We know how the Romans did this, the scourging was severe, but being that it was done for lighter offenses unworthy of the death penalty, it was done in such a way as to ensure that those inflicted would survive. indeed, some were given the choice of their punishment and chose to be scourged because it was the least severe of the options. Sure, it would have weakened him, but it would not have torn off his skin and exposed his internal organs, at worst, he would have had to spend a week in bed resting to recover. Harsh, but survivable. And, I don't know if you believe in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, but I'm pretty sure Mel Gibson does, and the Shroud doesn't show that Jesus endured anything like what is shown in the film. I don't know why Gibson felt the need to make the violence so unrealistically graphic.


I have heard more it more than once that Christ died quickly because he was scourged so severely - and I heard these arguments long before the Passion of the Christ was released.

But then there's this (and more like it): http://www.acheiropoietos.info/proceedings/FacciniWeb.pdf

Lots of debate about this, so I don't think your comments are absolute; it is up for discussion.


The suffering in The Passion directly contradicts the Shroud of Turin. There is no question of this.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:19 pm 
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Doom wrote:


Also, cringe is the wildly over-the-top and unrealistic nature of the violence inflicted against Jesus. The Romans did not use a whip designed to tear off the skin and eventually kill the offender if it continued for too long, this is completely ahistorical. We know how the Romans did this, the scourging was severe, but being that it was done for lighter offenses unworthy of the death penalty, it was done in such a way as to ensure that those inflicted would survive. indeed, some were given the choice of their punishment and chose to be scourged because it was the least severe of the options. Sure, it would have weakened him, but it would not have torn off his skin and exposed his internal organs, at worst, he would have had to spend a week in bed resting to recover. Harsh, but survivable. And, I don't know if you believe in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, but I'm pretty sure Mel Gibson does, and the Shroud doesn't show that Jesus endured anything like what is shown in the film. I don't know why Gibson felt the need to make the violence so unrealistically graphic.


However, the Protestant/Evangelical world has taught of this over-the-top, ripping organs, tale. I heard it taught in Sunday School and preached from pulpits. My pastor - when I was a teen - did a series of sermons on the death of Christ back in the late 70's early 80's in which he said "if a filmmaker were to accurately depict the scourging and crucifixion, the movie would have an X rating for violence".

I remember as a child being taught that the cat-of-nine-tails had shards of sharpened metal and other such barbs tied to the ends so they would dig in as the whip was applied then rip flesh as the punisher drew the whip back.

Sadly, the ultra-violence was what packed theater seats.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:15 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Doom wrote:


Also, cringe is the wildly over-the-top and unrealistic nature of the violence inflicted against Jesus. The Romans did not use a whip designed to tear off the skin and eventually kill the offender if it continued for too long, this is completely ahistorical. We know how the Romans did this, the scourging was severe, but being that it was done for lighter offenses unworthy of the death penalty, it was done in such a way as to ensure that those inflicted would survive. indeed, some were given the choice of their punishment and chose to be scourged because it was the least severe of the options. Sure, it would have weakened him, but it would not have torn off his skin and exposed his internal organs, at worst, he would have had to spend a week in bed resting to recover. Harsh, but survivable. And, I don't know if you believe in the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, but I'm pretty sure Mel Gibson does, and the Shroud doesn't show that Jesus endured anything like what is shown in the film. I don't know why Gibson felt the need to make the violence so unrealistically graphic.


However, the Protestant/Evangelical world has taught of this over-the-top, ripping organs, tale. I heard it taught in Sunday School and preached from pulpits. My pastor - when I was a teen - did a series of sermons on the death of Christ back in the late 70's early 80's in which he said "if a filmmaker were to accurately depict the scourging and crucifixion, the movie would have an X rating for violence".

I remember as a child being taught that the cat-of-nine-tails had shards of sharpened metal and other such barbs tied to the ends so they would dig in as the whip was applied then rip flesh as the punisher drew the whip back.

Sadly, the ultra-violence was what packed theater seats.


There might have been a time when experts on Roman history believed that, but we now know the scourging was not as bad as that. Sometimes, historical myths arise from experts saying things that later prove to be false, such as the belief that slaves built the pyramids in Egypt as seen in The Ten Commandments and other dramatizations of the Exodus (in fact, since the pyramids were considered sacred, slaves would have been thought unworthy), or that in ancient Rome, slaves were employed as rowers on ships (as seen in Ben Hur), the source of that is Theodore Mommsen, one of the greatest Roman historians, but he was wrong, the Roman army employed professional rowers because slaves were unreliable.

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 Post subject: Re: The Chosen
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:03 pm 
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The Roman Flagellum was a "Cat-o-Two-Tails" and was flicked by an expert to dig a bit of flesh out with each blow. The Shroud of Turin (believe in it or not, as you choose) shows the effects of flogging with a Flagellum. There is a theory that flogging was meant to weaken the victim so he would die more quickly,


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