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 Post subject: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:29 pm 
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As I understand it, Israel is the Old Testament “type” of the future Church.

A super-major event in Israel's history was the succession of the northern kingdom and split into Israel and Judah.

Have the Church fathers or other Catholic theologians had an opinion if this split represents something that would happen in the Church? Or rather, are we to see this as an example of a division of something else (e.g., the “world” and the Church).

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:58 pm 
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Well, there have been a heck of a lot of views but no responses….

So did my question not make sense (which is 100% likely :D )?

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:34 am 
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Here is an inspiring Exodus/Church comparison and not the negative approach you seen to be embracing:

https://catholicexchange.com/in-exodus- ... ure-church

For the past two thousand years, much has been written on the many scriptural prophecies by Old Testament prophets concerning the coming of the Messiah. These are well-known. However, much less attention has been given to the prophetic symbolism embedded in the Old Testament that points to the coming of Christ in unspoken signs and symbols. These unspoken prophecies—the divinely inspired symbols—are embedded in people, places, things, and miraculous occurrences. These hidden unspoken prophecies within Exodus are the typologies of Christ and the New Covenant.

In fact, the whole story of the Exodus is a foreshadowing of the coming of Christ. It is interwoven with signs and symbols for the New Covenant. The Apostles and the early Church Fathers refer to this symbology in the Old Testament as “types” and “figures.” This typology is throughout the Old Testament, but is most pronounced in Exodus. The typologies in Exodus are so central that they reveal quite explicitly, through symbology, the coming of the Messiah and his sacrificial mission. If Genesis 3:15 is the protoevangelium, then, Exodus is the full-fledged Old Testament Gospel. The Exodus predicts the Gospel so strikingly that it could very aptly be called “The New Exodus” or “The Second Exodus.”

The signs and symbols of Exodus offer a preview of the coming Redemption. The Exodus was the fore-look of the Incarnation. The types of the Old Testament gave way to the reality of Christ, the Church, and the Sacraments. These types can be seen in the main characters of Exodus, in Moses, and Aaron, and Joshua. They can be seen in the main events of Exodus: the Passover lamb, the crossing of the Red Sea, the theophany on Mount Sinai. The types can be seen in the miraculous objects too: the manna from Heaven, the water from the rock, the column of cloud and the pillar of fire, the bronze serpent on the pole, the Tabernacle. The typologies can be seen as well in the individual sacrifices, such as the daily whole burnt offering, the Yahweh and Azazel goats, and the red heifer sacrifice. They can be seen in the appointed times of the Jewish feasts as a roadmap to Salvation History. All was symbol and type. The Exodus is filled to the brim with typological prophecies of Christ.

The truth is these Exodus typologies are found throughout the Bible and the writings of the early Church Fathers. St. John the Baptist knew these typologies well, as he exclaims in the presence of Jesus: “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) St. Paul, and the rest of the Apostles, knew these typologies as well, as he states matter-of-factly: “These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ” (Col. 2:17). In his letter to the Corinthians, St. Paul goes into this in more detail:

I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
(1 Cor. 10:1-4)

He is proclaiming the typologies of Exodus as revealed in the person of Jesus Christ and the Sacraments. The Israelites passed through the Red Sea guided by the column of cloud and the pillar of fire. As the Fathers explain, the Red Sea is a type of a baptismal font. The Israelites go down into the waters of Baptism in crossing the sea and reemerge from the other side. The Holy Spirit as the cloud and the fire blesses the waters of the Sea. Pharaoh and the Egyptian soldiers are a type for sin. As they chase the Israelites through the Sea, the waters fall back down upon them, drowning and wiping them away. In fulfillment, the water of Baptism wipes away Original Sin and all of our sins, just as the Egyptians are washed away from the Israelites. Similar expositions can be made of the manna from Heaven and the water from the rock to the Eucharist and the Holy Spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:57 pm 
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Your question makes sense. I'm just not aware of any comments by the Fathers about that passage.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:17 pm 
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Could it be that the Church could never be truly divided?

This would imply either two legitimate churches, which can never be, or one legitimate and one is not, which still leaves you with One Church.

So I am not sure the premise is true.

You are either in, or you or some group has separated.

Hope I didnt complicate this thread. hehehe


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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:05 pm 
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aussie_aussie_oi_oi wrote:
Here is an inspiring Exodus/Church comparison and not the negative approach you seen to be embracing:


I apologize, I wasn't aware of a negative approach. Wasn't my intent at all...

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:06 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Your question makes sense. I'm just not aware of any comments by the Fathers about that passage.


Got it. Thank you Father.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:09 pm 
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Stargazer wrote:
Could it be that the Church could never be truly divided?

This would imply either two legitimate churches, which can never be, or one legitimate and one is not, which still leaves you with One Church.

So I am not sure the premise is true.

You are either in, or you or some group has separated.

Hope I didnt complicate this thread. hehehe


No, you didn't complicate.

I was just wondering since Israel has been understood to be a type of the Church in the Old Testament. I was trying to understand if something as major as the succession of the northern kingdom/tribes was considered something symbolic in the Church or rather, something that might happen to the Church. It appears its symbolic of nothing at all, which is as good an answer as any. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:42 pm 
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I think the "split" is in the form of 45,000+ denominations.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:05 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Could it be that the Church could never be truly divided?

This would imply either two legitimate churches, which can never be, or one legitimate and one is not, which still leaves you with One Church.

So I am not sure the premise is true.

You are either in, or you or some group has separated.

Hope I didnt complicate this thread. hehehe


No, you didn't complicate.

I was just wondering since Israel has been understood to be a type of the Church in the Old Testament. I was trying to understand if something as major as the succession of the northern kingdom/tribes was considered something symbolic in the Church or rather, something that might happen to the Church. It appears its symbolic of nothing at all, which is as good an answer as any. :)

Do you use the Haydock Bible commentary?
Sometimes I have these questions and store them away, but then unexpectedly find the answer later when I wasnt even looking. Anyway. Fr George Haydock, in the 19th century wrote a bible commentary that i sometimes find answers in.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:19 pm 
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Stargazer wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Stargazer wrote:
Could it be that the Church could never be truly divided?

This would imply either two legitimate churches, which can never be, or one legitimate and one is not, which still leaves you with One Church.

So I am not sure the premise is true.

You are either in, or you or some group has separated.

Hope I didnt complicate this thread. hehehe


No, you didn't complicate.

I was just wondering since Israel has been understood to be a type of the Church in the Old Testament. I was trying to understand if something as major as the succession of the northern kingdom/tribes was considered something symbolic in the Church or rather, something that might happen to the Church. It appears its symbolic of nothing at all, which is as good an answer as any. :)

Do you use the Haydock Bible commentary?
Sometimes I have these questions and store them away, but then unexpectedly find the answer later when I wasnt even looking. Anyway. Fr George Haydock, in the 19th century wrote a bible commentary that i sometimes find answers in.


I don't, but maybe will pick one up! Thanks for the suggestion!

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 Post subject: Re: Israel as a type of the Church
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:16 pm 
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Fr George is interesting barely survived the French revolution and he had a relative also a Fr Haydock, whom I believe was canonized.


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