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 Post subject: Persecution
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:22 am 
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I read this today - "How do you know you are doing God’s will? Answer: you suffer persecution."

Granted, I'm not sure this is entirely correct (e.g., you always suffer persecution when doing God's will), but it did get me thinking....

Does persecution encompass activities/words/actions from other people, circumstances or spiritual attacks (via thoughts). Or rather, does it tend to be a combination of these?

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:31 pm 
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If you are opposed to Abortion, you will be persecuted.
If you are opposed to Same Sex Marriage, you will be persecuted.
If you are opposed to Socialism, you will be persecuted.
If you put up a creche for Christmas, you will be persecuted.
If you go out in public on Ash Wednesday with the ashes on your forehead, you will be persecuted (Ted Turner's attack on his Catholic employees is an example.)


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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:29 pm 
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Yes, thank you.

I should be clearer.....

My question isn't what will result in persecution. Rather, what are the forms of persecution (i.e., spiritual attacks with bad thoughts or loved ones being ugly to you).

As an example - I'm pro life. I see pro-abortion people on TV who say insulting things about those who are pro-life. However, I've never been bothered by what they are saying. So, does that constitute persecution?

What about thoughts of despair (assume one doesn't have underlying mental concerns)? Is that spiritual persecution?

If I was living in Afghanistan and the Taliban came to my door and beat the snot out of me for having a cross outside, I get it; that's persecution.

I guess I'm trying to discern if and when I'm being persecuted if I don't necessarily think I'm being persecuted. Is it always obvious or can it be subtle?

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:20 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Yes, thank you.

I should be clearer.....

My question isn't what will result in persecution. Rather, what are the forms of persecution (i.e., spiritual attacks with bad thoughts or loved ones being ugly to you).

As an example - I'm pro life. I see pro-abortion people on TV who say insulting things about those who are pro-life. However, I've never been bothered by what they are saying. So, does that constitute persecution?


Yes, it does -- just as racial slurs are racism, insults attacking one's religious beliefs are persecution.


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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:37 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Yes, thank you.

I should be clearer.....

My question isn't what will result in persecution. Rather, what are the forms of persecution (i.e., spiritual attacks with bad thoughts or loved ones being ugly to you).

As an example - I'm pro life. I see pro-abortion people on TV who say insulting things about those who are pro-life. However, I've never been bothered by what they are saying. So, does that constitute persecution?


Yes, it does -- just as racial slurs are racism, insults attacking one's religious beliefs are persecution.


I'm going to wager that the Catholics in China will disagree.

That the Catholics in North Korea will disagree.

That the Catholics of the Soviet Union over about 80 years will disagree.

The Catholics who were stoned to death by Saul will disagree.

It is, IMHO, insulting to those who have been persecuted, who have lost family, friends, their means of feeding their family, those who have been imprisioned and physically/mentally tortured, to compare calling names or posting a meme to actual persecution.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:29 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
I guess I'm trying to discern if and when I'm being persecuted if I don't necessarily think I'm being persecuted. Is it always obvious or can it be subtle?

Imagine you apply for a job you're a great candidate for, but your candidacy is scuttled because it comes out that you're Catholic, and the hiring folks don't want to employ Catholics. They're not going to tell you that you were cut out of the running due to your religion, so you'll never find out about it. But that doesn't mean it's not persecution. So yes, it can be subtle and you might never know about some forms of persecution.

While I agree with kage that what we're dealing with at this point here in the US doesn't begin to stack up to what others elsewhere have dealt with or are now dealing with, I would also say that lower-level persecution is still persecution.

I don't know what the Church has tended to say about purely spiritual attacks as persecution. The demons can oppress us, but I don't know if traditionally that would be viewed as falling into the same category as persecution.

I am going to say that having strangers on TV or something criticize pro-lifers is not persecution. That's a case of 'shut the dumb thing off--it's no surprise that you're gonna see and hear wicked stuff!' Not a case of persecution. But if you work somewhere that the culture is strongly oriented in a worldly way, and everyone takes things for granted (like we're all enlightened atheists here, or we're all in favor of "reproductive rights" here, or whatever) so that you are constantly belittled or just treated as though you don't count or don't exist, then yes that's subtle persecution. It's not like getting roasted alive on a gridiron. True. But it still hurts.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:49 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
I guess I'm trying to discern if and when I'm being persecuted if I don't necessarily think I'm being persecuted. Is it always obvious or can it be subtle?

Imagine you apply for a job you're a great candidate for, but your candidacy is scuttled because it comes out that you're Catholic, and the hiring folks don't want to employ Catholics. They're not going to tell you that you were cut out of the running due to your religion, so you'll never find out about it. But that doesn't mean it's not persecution. So yes, it can be subtle and you might never know about some forms of persecution.

While I agree with kage that what we're dealing with at this point here in the US doesn't begin to stack up to what others elsewhere have dealt with or are now dealing with, I would also say that lower-level persecution is still persecution.

I don't know what the Church has tended to say about purely spiritual attacks as persecution. The demons can oppress us, but I don't know if traditionally that would be viewed as falling into the same category as persecution.

I am going to say that having strangers on TV or something criticize pro-lifers is not persecution. That's a case of 'shut the dumb thing off--it's no surprise that you're gonna see and hear wicked stuff!' Not a case of persecution. But if you work somewhere that the culture is strongly oriented in a worldly way, and everyone takes things for granted (like we're all enlightened atheists here, or we're all in favor of "reproductive rights" here, or whatever) so that you are constantly belittled or just treated as though you don't count or don't exist, then yes that's subtle persecution. It's not like getting roasted alive on a gridiron. True. But it still hurts.


Thanks. This makes sense.

I think I'm more hardened and don't sense the subtle persecution. We do have it easy in the US.

I've also wondered if demons can cause bad things to happen to us as a form of persecution. We would never know (e.g., our car blows a tire) that it was spiritual, but it was still an attack.

So I guess when one thinks about that, it's really nor persecution but something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:30 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Yes, thank you.

I should be clearer.....

My question isn't what will result in persecution. Rather, what are the forms of persecution (i.e., spiritual attacks with bad thoughts or loved ones being ugly to you).

As an example - I'm pro life. I see pro-abortion people on TV who say insulting things about those who are pro-life. However, I've never been bothered by what they are saying. So, does that constitute persecution?


Yes, it does -- just as racial slurs are racism, insults attacking one's religious beliefs are persecution.


I'm going to wager that the Catholics in China will disagree.

That the Catholics in North Korea will disagree.

That the Catholics of the Soviet Union over about 80 years will disagree.

The Catholics who were stoned to death by Saul will disagree.

It is, IMHO, insulting to those who have been persecuted, who have lost family, friends, their means of feeding their family, those who have been imprisioned and physically/mentally tortured, to compare calling names or posting a meme to actual persecution.



It's not an either/or proposition, insults and social exclusion, being treated like a pariah, is indeed a form of persecution, ask any unpopular high school student, or an African American in the south during segregation, The argument that unless you're being murdered or thrown in prison you have no right to complain about your treatment is very naive.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:48 pm 
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Doom wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Yes, thank you.

I should be clearer.....

My question isn't what will result in persecution. Rather, what are the forms of persecution (i.e., spiritual attacks with bad thoughts or loved ones being ugly to you).

As an example - I'm pro life. I see pro-abortion people on TV who say insulting things about those who are pro-life. However, I've never been bothered by what they are saying. So, does that constitute persecution?


Yes, it does -- just as racial slurs are racism, insults attacking one's religious beliefs are persecution.


I'm going to wager that the Catholics in China will disagree.

That the Catholics in North Korea will disagree.

That the Catholics of the Soviet Union over about 80 years will disagree.

The Catholics who were stoned to death by Saul will disagree.

It is, IMHO, insulting to those who have been persecuted, who have lost family, friends, their means of feeding their family, those who have been imprisioned and physically/mentally tortured, to compare calling names or posting a meme to actual persecution.


It's not an either/or proposition, insults and social exclusion, being treated like a pariah, is indeed a form of persecution, ask any unpopular high school student, or an African American in the south during segregation, The argument that unless you're being murdered or thrown in prison you have no right to complain about your treatment is very naive.



Dear friend, I get mocked and jeered at every time I am out in public. It is uncomfortable, it is tiresome, in my "sparkier" days it led me to confront people in their faces (well, in their midsections), and yes, I complain about it sometimes.

Complaining about, crying about, feeling sad and lonely, feeling suicidal, yep that happens and some days even the thickest skin bruises from such treatment. Still, that pales in comparison to those who face death, imprisonment, torture. The longer I live in this mangled body, the deeper my opinions on this.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:12 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Doom wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Yes, thank you.

I should be clearer.....

My question isn't what will result in persecution. Rather, what are the forms of persecution (i.e., spiritual attacks with bad thoughts or loved ones being ugly to you).

As an example - I'm pro life. I see pro-abortion people on TV who say insulting things about those who are pro-life. However, I've never been bothered by what they are saying. So, does that constitute persecution?


Yes, it does -- just as racial slurs are racism, insults attacking one's religious beliefs are persecution.


I'm going to wager that the Catholics in China will disagree.

That the Catholics in North Korea will disagree.

That the Catholics of the Soviet Union over about 80 years will disagree.

The Catholics who were stoned to death by Saul will disagree.

It is, IMHO, insulting to those who have been persecuted, who have lost family, friends, their means of feeding their family, those who have been imprisioned and physically/mentally tortured, to compare calling names or posting a meme to actual persecution.


It's not an either/or proposition, insults and social exclusion, being treated like a pariah, is indeed a form of persecution, ask any unpopular high school student, or an African American in the south during segregation, The argument that unless you're being murdered or thrown in prison you have no right to complain about your treatment is very naive.



Dear friend, I get mocked and jeered at every time I am out in public. It is uncomfortable, it is tiresome, in my "sparkier" days it led me to confront people in their faces (well, in their midsections), and yes, I complain about it sometimes.

Complaining about, crying about, feeling sad and lonely, feeling suicidal, yep that happens and some days even the thickest skin bruises from such treatment. Still, that pales in comparison to those who face death, imprisonment, torture. The longer I live in this mangled body, the deeper my opinions on this.


Is your issue that in degrees of persecution that the forms of it in the Western world aren't as egregious as those in other places?

You kind of down play "feeling suicidal"... because if successful, it's kind of a wash at that point as to what brought the person to their end. They're simply dead.

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