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 Post subject: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:42 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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What are we to make of the OT's gushing defense of spanking?

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:00 pm 
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:50 pm 
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The same we should make of the OT's defense of capital punishment, imo

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:29 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

What do you think of the work of, say, Alice Miller, Gordon Neufeld, Thomas Gordon etc?

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:54 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

What do you think of the work of, say, Alice Miller, Gordon Neufeld, Thomas Gordon etc?


Those are three people I've never heard of, are you suggesting I should know who they are?

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:02 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

What do you think of the work of, say, Alice Miller, Gordon Neufeld, Thomas Gordon etc?


Those are three people I've never heard of, are you suggesting I should know who they are?

People who write about their theories of raising children.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:27 pm 
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My opinion (for what it is worth, which is about .02)

Comes from their limited understanding of God. We tend to imitate the God in whom we believe. Thus, if we see God as all powerful, angry, and ready to avenge wrongdoing, we act in the same manner.

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Bad theology always turns into bad practice somewhere down the road. Aquinas called for the extermination of heretics. After all, if heretics or pagans are not “one of the elect of God,” then they are God’s enemy, and since God burns His enemies for eternity, we should treat them in similar manner here on earth. Killing those who do not follow our interpretation of God or the scriptures, who are going to go to an eternal hell of fire anyway, is not seen as violating the commandments of Christ to love our enemies, but is instead commended as “protecting the flock from error” or “saving souls from hellfire.” This kind of thinking led the Puritan leader, Governor Winthrop of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, to delight in the murder of some three hundred Native American women and children because they were pagans, and as such, deserved to fall under the just condemnation of God, which Winthrop, being a good and devout Christian, was only too happy to administer as God’s agent on earth!


Same thing with the OT view of God. The God of the OT, seen in a wooden, fundamentalist view, is wrathful, therefore, parents should follow what He does and whooop the hell out of their children to correct them. The early fathers didn't view God through the lens of fundamentalism. They looked for Christ in the OT. Thus, when it says "Blessed are they who bash their children's heads against a rock" the fathers saw the children metaphorically as our sins, and we being blessed if we attack and kill those sins in us.

Oh, one other thing....I do have a dog in this fight. I tried to spank the devil out of my children. Lots of spanking, very little of loving correction. I will go to my grave in sorrow that I listened to the Fundamentalist types who taught that this was a good way to raise kids. I wish I had known better.

But such understanding of scripture was far from the OT folks, who had a very much limited understanding of God compared to the early church.

Like I said....my .02


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:35 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Doom wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

What do you think of the work of, say, Alice Miller, Gordon Neufeld, Thomas Gordon etc?


Those are three people I've never heard of, are you suggesting I should know who they are?

People who write about their theories of raising children.


In other words, people not worth reading. One cannot lay down strict iron clad rules about how to raise children.

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:12 am 
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Light of the East wrote:
My opinion (for what it is worth, which is about .02)

Comes from their limited understanding of God. We tend to imitate the God in whom we believe. Thus, if we see God as all powerful, angry, and ready to avenge wrongdoing, we act in the same manner.

So you think spanking kids is about being powerful, angry and ready to avenge wrongdoing? That's certainly disturbing. The biblical account is about correction for the benefit of the child. One of the most obvious and simple guidelines for parents is to not ever spank a child out of anger.

Quote:
"Blessed are they who bash their children's heads against a rock" the fathers saw the children metaphorically as our sins, and we being blessed if we attack and kill those sins in us.

I think you want to take another look at that passage.

Quote:
Oh, one other thing....I do have a dog in this fight. I tried to spank the devil out of my children. Lots of spanking, very little of loving correction. I will go to my grave in sorrow that I listened to the Fundamentalist types who taught that this was a good way to raise kids. I wish I had known better.

You are still a fundamentalist, Brother Ed. Still the same old either-or, simple-minded literalism. It's gotta be either spanking or lovingly correcting.

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:18 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

What do you think of the work of, say, Alice Miller, Gordon Neufeld, Thomas Gordon etc?

What should I think of it? You tell me.

I can say that I've read the work Gregory Popcak, who is anti-spanking. I remember reading this long account of the biblical verse about sparing the rod and spoiling the child. Popcak made a heartfelt argument that the using the rod isn't about hitting the child with the rod, it's about using the rod as a guide for their behavior--the shepherd doesn't hit his sheep, he gently nudges them with it to point them where he wants them to go. That sort of thing. (Don't quote me, it's been a lot of years.) The point was that the standard biblical verse used in defense of spanking is supposed to not actually support spanking. On the other hand, Popcak for some reason did not address this passage: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:13 pm 
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I only spanked one of my children. When my oldest was about 18 months old, she kept walking out into the street (we didn't have a fence yet.) I cut a switch and switched her chubby little calves. Didn't work -- she stood there and howled. I realized I was going to have to find another way.

On the other hand, when I was a kid, if I wanted to do something, and you didn't want me to do it -- you better have a 2X4!


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:52 pm 
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Spanked my son one time when he was in Kindergarten, I don't even remember why. I do remember it was a smack with my hand and I burst a blood vessel and my hand hurt for days.

He has been a kid/teen/adult who is so good I am :shock: :shock: :shock: .

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:48 pm 
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How common are cases when talking isn't an option?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:49 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
How common are cases when talking isn't an option?

I don't know if you have children, but it's my experience they have tp be several years old before logic begins to work.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:17 pm 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
How common are cases when talking isn't an option?

I don't know if you have children, but it's my experience they have tp be several years old before logic begins to work.

I am 20 years old, and unmarried, and without children of my own.

For younger children: forcibly clothing them or taking them away from something is one thing, spanking is another.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:51 pm 
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https://peacefulfathers.com/do-not-destroy-your-child/
https://peacefulfathers.com/nice-guys-a ... and-abuse/
https://peacefulfathers.com/making-real ... your-kids/

Thoughts?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:45 am 
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Jack3 wrote:

How many kids has this guy raised? How did they turn out?


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:19 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
Thoughts?

What are your thoughts? Do you think this person makes sense? Why? How?

I did not read much beyond the beginning of the first linked article. What I read was dumb. I am not good at masking the truth, so there it is. The person who wrote this stuff isn't able to think carefully, or doesn't bother. He spoke of lashing out, conflating spanking with attacking the child in anger like Brother Ed did above in the thread. If you get angry at your kids and hit them like you're starting a bar fight with them, then you're obviously not being a good parent. You don't need some manscaped millennial to tell you that. You shouldn't, anyway.

He writes, as though a deep thought: "If your child is misbehaving and you think giving them a spanking will correct the problem, it should only have to be done one time. If spankings have to be continually administered, then you are clearly delusional about the effectiveness."

Really? So when I try to correct my child's swing as a baseball coach, I just show him once, and if he doesn't change that means I'm delusional about the effectiveness of my coaching technique? This is idiocy. This man has no idea what he is talking about. Shaping a young person's character (to move away from the baseball example and back to parenting) is a lifelong practice, involving repeated, frequent, lessons of all kinds. Unfortunately, that includes some negative lessons like if you talk that way to your mother, you will be spanked (or whatever). Characters are not shaped overnight, with one quick lesson.

The guy actually mentions taking the kid's pants down to spank him. I expect it's done, but it was never done to me or by me. It's not part of the practice. I'm calling straight up charlatan on this guy. Where do you find this crap?

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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:51 am 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
Jack3 wrote:

How many kids has this guy raised? How did they turn out?

Two, I think, and they turned out fine, he says.

gherkin wrote:
What are your thoughts? Do you think this person makes sense? Why? How?
. It's not part of the practice. I'm calling straight up charlatan on this guy. Where do you find this crap?

I think from experience that most instances of spanking weren't necessary and could've been dealt with differently.

This guy I found on Twitter.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Bible and corporal punishment
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:09 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
gherkin wrote:
What are your thoughts? Do you think this person makes sense? Why? How?

I think from experience that most instances of spanking weren't necessary and could've been dealt with differently.

Does not address the question other than to say that you like his conclusions because he agrees with you, but you both disagree with the Bible. I'm going out on a limb and saying you're on the wrong side there.

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