Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 13 posts ]   
Author Message
 Post subject: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:26 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:38 am
Posts: 428
Location: SW Ohio
Religion: Catholic as of Easter 2010
Church Affiliations: RC
We are instructed by Christ to forgive others for anything they do, even if they don’t recognize they did wrong and seek forgiveness. But it does not appear God does the same thing. God does not forgive everyone for everything they do wrong – he expects repentance, right? If God forgave everyone for everything they did, even if they don’t acknowledge their wrong, then no one would go to Hell.

Why does this duality exist?

Is it because we are imperfect judges, while God is a perfect judge? Do we forgive others because we don’t have the authority to judge them, but God does?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:04 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82876
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Stolen from a priest group on FB, and lightly edited:

Quote:
Healing the vertical requires contrition because of the infinite glory of God. Explain perfect and imperfect contrition. And healing the horizontal, brothers and sisters, is because the standard we apply to others of equal dignity is the standard that will be applied to us. If we hold others accountable for things they never apologized for then the same will be applied to us. It's actually easier to forgive others that don't apologize than going around and apologizing for all of our sins and faults.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:52 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2456
Religion: Catholic
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Stolen from a priest group on FB, and lightly edited:

Quote:
Healing the vertical requires contrition because of the infinite glory of God. Explain perfect and imperfect contrition. And healing the horizontal, brothers and sisters, is because the standard we apply to others of equal dignity is the standard that will be applied to us. If we hold others accountable for things they never apologized for then the same will be applied to us. It's actually easier to forgive others that don't apologize than going around and apologizing for all of our sins and faults.


The applying is done by God?

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:30 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
Dominic wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Stolen from a priest group on FB, and lightly edited:

Quote:
Healing the vertical requires contrition because of the infinite glory of God. Explain perfect and imperfect contrition. And healing the horizontal, brothers and sisters, is because the standard we apply to others of equal dignity is the standard that will be applied to us. If we hold others accountable for things they never apologized for then the same will be applied to us. It's actually easier to forgive others that don't apologize than going around and apologizing for all of our sins and faults.


The applying is done by God?

Who else would apply standards to mankind?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:43 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2456
Religion: Catholic
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Who else would apply standards to mankind?


Yes, of course, everything ultimately flows from Him. I was just trying to understand the horizontal relationships a bit more. I imagined it in a similar manner as when someone prays for us. We are essentially pulling from a pool of grace that isn't ours if you will. Especially if we are not in a state of grace and are asking someone who is to pray for us.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:23 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
Dominic wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
Who else would apply standards to mankind?


Yes, of course, everything ultimately flows from Him. I was just trying to understand the horizontal relationships a bit more. I imagined it in a similar manner as when someone prays for us. We are essentially pulling from a pool of grace that isn't ours if you will. Especially if we are not in a state of grace and are asking someone who is to pray for us.

It is not necessary for a person to be in a state of grace to pray for another person (that would be the Donatist Heresy.)

The "pool of grace" is also called the "Treasury of Merit" or the Church's Treasury. From the Catechism:

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:12 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2456
Religion: Catholic
Vern Humphrey wrote:
It is not necessary for a person to be in a state of grace to pray for another person (that would be the Donatist Heresy.)

The "pool of grace" is also called the "Treasury of Merit" or the Church's Treasury. From the Catechism:

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God.


Wasn't the main issue with Donatist the dispensing of the sacraments (which can only be the priesthood) in a state of grace?

I don't think that is the same thing as me asking a cold-blooded murderer to pray for me.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:36 pm 
Offline
Trophy Dwarf
Trophy Dwarf
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 34710
Location: Here in the center holding my bleeding heart...
Religion: Catholic Convert
Church Affiliations: Dorothy Day Guild
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Stolen from a priest group on FB, and lightly edited:

Quote:
Healing the vertical requires contrition because of the infinite glory of God. Explain perfect and imperfect contrition. And healing the horizontal, brothers and sisters, is because the standard we apply to others of equal dignity is the standard that will be applied to us. If we hold others accountable for things they never apologized for then the same will be applied to us. It's actually easier to forgive others that don't apologize than going around and apologizing for all of our sins and faults.


:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

_________________
Living life on prayers and hooks and needles...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:23 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
Dominic wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
It is not necessary for a person to be in a state of grace to pray for another person (that would be the Donatist Heresy.)

The "pool of grace" is also called the "Treasury of Merit" or the Church's Treasury. From the Catechism:

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church’s treasury, which is “not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the ‘treasury of the Church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God.


Wasn't the main issue with Donatist the dispensing of the sacraments (which can only be the priesthood) in a state of grace?


The Donatist position was that the validity of an act (such as a prayer or sacrament) is contingent on the state of grace of the person performing it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:19 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:20 pm
Posts: 2456
Religion: Catholic
Vern Humphrey wrote:
The Donatist position was that the validity of an act (such as a prayer or sacrament) is contingent on the state of grace of the person performing it.


I'm not so sure about the prayer bit.

When possible, put a link up where it speaks specifically about prayer being a thing of concern with Donatists.

_________________
Everything in the universe has its being not only from God but also toward God.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:33 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:55 am
Posts: 4989
Location: I have no memory of this place....
Religion: Catholic
Expecting penance isn’t the same thing as forgiveness or being forgiven by God.

It seems that the mistake you’re making is how you appear to believe that penance is for God.

It’s not for God or for His forgiveness that we do penance, they are prayers and practices for usto correct our perspective and our habits and bring our habits and will in line and in view with God’s will.

_________________
"End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it. White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:56 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:04 pm
Posts: 566
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th KofC
Dominic wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
The Donatist position was that the validity of an act (such as a prayer or sacrament) is contingent on the state of grace of the person performing it.


I'm not so sure about the prayer bit.

When possible, put a link up where it speaks specifically about prayer being a thing of concern with Donatists.

Well, for what it's worth, this is from Wikipedia:

" Donatists argued that Christian clergy must be faultless for their ministry to be effective and their prayers and sacraments to be valid."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: God's forgiveness vs. Ours
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:34 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 82876
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
I'm not even sure what a "valid" prayer is. I would discount Wikipedia on this point.

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1   [ 13 posts ]   


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


Jump to: