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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:26 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
What specific obstacles stand in the way of the re-uniting of the Church? And who is it that upholds those obstacles?


I will link you to what Fr. Thomas Hopko said in this regard, speaking as an Orthodox priest:

https://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/or ... tian_unity


Let's discuss a few of the "big" issues that I'm generally not clear on.....

1) Do the orthodox believe in purgatory?
2) Do the orthodox believe in an internal hell, the fate of the damned?
3) Do the orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?
4) Do the orthodox believe in infallibility at any level of the Church?

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:28 pm 
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[quote="Peetem".

1) Do the orthodox believe in purgatory?

"Some Eastern Orthodox sources, including the Ecumenical Patriarchate, consider Purgatory to be among "inter-correlated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church" that are not acceptable within Orthodox doctrine, and hold to a "condition of waiting" as a more apt description of the period after death for those not borne directly to heaven."

2) Do the orthodox believe in an internal hell, the fate of the damned?

"For those who hate the Lord, the same Presence will be infinite torture, hell and eternal death. The reality for both the saved and the damned will be exactly the same when Christ “comes in glory, and all angels with Him,” so that “God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15–28)."

3) Do the orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?

Generally, no. But the official position of the Catholic Church is that the Orthodox are not required to admit the Filioque

4) Do the orthodox believe in infallibility at any level of the Church?

"These interpretations of the Vatican decree [on infallibility] comes very near to the Orthodox belief in the infallibility of the Church. Even the stipulation that a declaration ex cathedra does not need confirmation by the Church should not be irreconcilable with Orthodox belief."


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:52 am 
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Vern Humphrey wrote:
[quote="Peetem".

1) Do the orthodox believe in purgatory?

"Some Eastern Orthodox sources, including the Ecumenical Patriarchate, consider Purgatory to be among "inter-correlated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church" that are not acceptable within Orthodox doctrine, and hold to a "condition of waiting" as a more apt description of the period after death for those not borne directly to heaven."

2) Do the orthodox believe in an internal hell, the fate of the damned?

"For those who hate the Lord, the same Presence will be infinite torture, hell and eternal death. The reality for both the saved and the damned will be exactly the same when Christ “comes in glory, and all angels with Him,” so that “God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15–28)."

3) Do the orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?

Generally, no. But the official position of the Catholic Church is that the Orthodox are not required to admit the Filioque

4) Do the orthodox believe in infallibility at any level of the Church?

"These interpretations of the Vatican decree [on infallibility] comes very near to the Orthodox belief in the infallibility of the Church. Even the stipulation that a declaration ex cathedra does not need confirmation by the Church should not be irreconcilable with Orthodox belief."


Thanks.

Are you Eastern Orthodox?

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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:22 pm 
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Quote="Peetem"

Let's discuss a few of the "big" issues that I'm generally not clear on.....

1) Do the orthodox believe in purgatory?

First of all, I do find it more than a tad odd that a Roman Catholic (Vern Humphrey) appears to be speaking for Orthodoxy. Do the Orthodox believe in Purgatory? No. But let me clarify that a bit. Purgatory is a place where you are punished for the sins that you did not confess until they are expiated. It is part and parcel of Penal Substitution theory where everything is about law and breaking the law and punishment. We Orthodox do not approach salvation in such terms. We see the after death cleansing of the soul as medicinal, not juridical. There is no punishment involved in it. And it most assuredly is not a place as described in so much Roman Catholic literature that I have read.

Purgation after death is coming into the presence of Christ and entering into the passionate fire of His love. It is analogized in Scripture as a smelting furnace where impurities are burned away by heat (fire). It is not God literally beating the hell out of our souls by punishment.


2) Do the orthodox believe in an internal hell, the fate of the damned?

I think you meant to say eternal hell, right? Going on that assumption, there is no official document in Orthodoxy which corresponds to the CCC of the Roman Church in which a belief in eternal punishment is clearly spelled out. Some Orthodox do, and to suggest to them that perhaps hell is temporary and purgative gets them into screaming fits. Most of these Orthodox are converts from Protestantism and have brought the Penal Substitution Theory and its corollary belief, eternal hell, right along with them. But there is no official document anywhere in Orthodoxy which states that eternal hell is a reality. As for those converts, I think of a saying I saw somewhere: "It's nice that they found Orthodoxy. Now let us hope that Orthodox finds them."

3) Do the orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?

Is it in the original Creed? That's all you have to know.

4) Do the orthodox believe in infallibility at any level of the Church?[/quote]

I can't answer that specifically, other than to say that they believe that the first seven ecumenical councils are infallible, a rule of faith that MUST be believed, and are binding upon the faithful. Other than that, I don't have an answer.

Hope that helps a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:59 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:

1) Do the orthodox believe in purgatory?

First of all, I do find it more than a tad odd that a Roman Catholic (Vern Humphrey) appears to be speaking for Orthodoxy. Do the Orthodox believe in Purgatory? No. But let me clarify that a bit. Purgatory is a place where you are punished for the sins that you did not confess until they are expiated. It is part and parcel of Penal Substitution theory where everything is about law and breaking the law and punishment. We Orthodox do not approach salvation in such terms. We see the after death cleansing of the soul as medicinal, not juridical. There is no punishment involved in it. And it most assuredly is not a place as described in so much Roman Catholic literature that I have read.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

Note that the CCC does not refer to purgatory as a "place" but rather depicts it as a process (of purgation.)
Light of the East wrote:
Purgation after death is coming into the presence of Christ and entering into the passionate fire of His love. It is analogized in Scripture as a smelting furnace where impurities are burned away by heat (fire). It is not God literally beating the hell out of our souls by punishment.


Which appears to be very close to the Catholic position, at least to me.
Light of the East wrote:
2) Do the orthodox believe in an internal hell, the fate of the damned?

I think you meant to say eternal hell, right? Going on that assumption, there is no official document in Orthodoxy which corresponds to the CCC of the Roman Church in which a belief in eternal punishment is clearly spelled out. Some Orthodox do, and to suggest to them that perhaps hell is temporary and purgative gets them into screaming fits.


Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1472
Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin.

There is nothing of the traditional torment in that paragraph. It would not be wrong to say the Catholic Church defines Heaven as "The Beatific Vision" and Hell as deprivation of the Beatific Vision -- which is quite similar to what you spelled out.

3) Do the orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son?

[b][color=#000000]Is it in the original Creed? That's all you have to know.


4) Do the orthodox believe in infallibility at any level of the Church?[/quote]

I can't answer that specifically, other than to say that they believe that the first seven ecumenical councils are infallible, a rule of faith that MUST be believed, and are binding upon the faithful. Other than that, I don't have an answer.

Hope that helps a bit.
[/quote]

This reinforces my belief that there is not that much difference between the Orthodox and the Catholic Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-Catholic Miracles
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:01 pm 
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Perhaps you should learn your faith a little bit better. Here is Aquinas on Purgatory.

Quote:
The punishments of purgatory purge the souls there of venial sins and cancel the debt owed for venial guilt. Not all venial sins are cleansed from a soul simultaneously; the more persistent or habitual venial sins are more slowly wiped out both as to guilt and punishment. Thus one soul may be liberated from purgatory more quickly than another soul which had committed the same factual venial sins; only the soul first liberated had not committed the sins with the persistency or intensity of the other.

Note Two:

Those who deny purgatory are actually speaking against the justice of God. For a soul may depart this life in venial sin, and with the remains of forgiven sin upon it. Justice requires these things to be removed by penalty or punishment. But this penalty cannot be the eternal punishment of hell; that punishment would go beyond the requirements of justice. The punishment required must be temporal. Now, temporal punishment after death means purgatory. It seems likely enough that the fires of punishment of hell and of purgatory are in the same place. Just as the same fire can be used to purify gold and to burn dross, so the one type of punishing fire may purify souls from venial sin and merely afflict souls in mortal sin. Still, no one can say for sure that the one fire afflicts both the souls in purgatory and the damned in hell. Nor can anyone say with certainty just where purgatory is located.


Now....let me state again. We Orthodox do not believe in a PLACE called Purgatory. And we do not accept the idea of punishment in our purgation. The purgation of sin after death is healing chastisement, not punishment. This is why I am no longer interested in Roman Catholicism. The Roman Church is drenched in the ideas of Roman Law Court Justice rather than the healing of the soul. Everything I have read regarding this life and the next is about punishment, as if the Father can only punish, but not heal the soul. In studying history, it appears to me that the culture of the Roman Empire influenced the Latin Church instead of the other way around. There is no way that punishment and healing are the same action.

As for your last note, there is a large difference between the Roman Catholic faith and the Orthodox faith. Did you read the link I gave to Fr. Hopko's message? Let's talk about the differences:

The Filioque Clause has to go. It wasn't in the original Creed and was inserted nine centuries later by Frankish bishops from the North.
After the Schism of 1054, the Latin Church created the following doctrines which the Orthodox will not accept:

The Immacuate Conception
Papal Supremacy
Papal Infallibility
Indulgences
Purgatory
The Treasury of Merit
Divine Simplicity

In addition, some of the more strident Orthodox do not accept sprinkling for baptism, the use of "dead bread" in the Eucharist, withholding the Eucharist from infant children, clerical celibacy.

Still think there are just a few differences?


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