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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:20 am 
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kage_ar wrote:
While I've not done an exhaustive search, I've been able to find this "decree" on your linked site and one that seems too sketchy for me to click through. Is there any official source like the Vatican website?

There are many, many decrees that can't be found on vatican.va

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:50 pm 
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I’m not sure what happened to my previous post.

The first part of the linked document is from the Congregatio Concili, which at the time was a catch-all for things that didn’t fit anywhere else. It’s on p. 26 of the AAS for 1930.

The second part is not in the AAS and not a part of the decree. At a guess, it was a local attempt to provide standards. I strongly doubt that it has any magisterial weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 pm 
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Further sleuthing reveals that the "Marylike" standards were the creation of a Fr. Bernard A. Kunkel in 1944, which means that they have no magisterial standing whatsoever.

Mind you, I find modern-day fashions appalling.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:38 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Further sleuthing reveals that the "Marylike" standards were the creation of a Fr. Bernard A. Kunkel in 1944, which means that they have no magisterial standing whatsoever.

Mind you, I find modern-day fashions appalling.


I agree with you on a LOT of modern-day fashions.

Also, isn't it rather fascinating how there are many ideas and beliefs in Catholicism that have no Magisterial standing, yet people accept them as such? I have a feeling if I were to say, "btw these have no magisterial standing" and explained why on a different forum, people would be very quick to attack me. Or accuse me of other things that aren't very polite, which I will not utter here.


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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:41 am 
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gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Vern Humphrey wrote:
I don't see how a woman can be blamed for the lust in the heart of a man.


I didn’t say that. Nobody was blamed.


Well, I dunno: "...but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6)

Kind of sounds like our Lord believes we have responsibilities to each other. If someone knowingly dresses in a way calculated to provoke lust, that would appear to fall into the category of "better to have a millstone..." It's not about the person's physique, it's about the presentation of it. And of course men could in principle be guilty of this sin, too, especially in a hyper-sexualized society.


Isn't that common sense? If a man shows up in public with an extremely tight muscle shirt and walks through the park showing off his physique, how could that not be considered immodest? It's one thing for a man to have a physique that shows at a weight-lifting competition, and another to show up to a party showing it off. In the latter, the intent is to definitely show off the physique.


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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:52 am 
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mia.s wrote:
Isn't that common sense? If a man shows up in public with an extremely tight muscle shirt and walks through the park showing off his physique, how could that not be considered immodest? It's one thing for a man to have a physique that shows at a weight-lifting competition, and another to show up to a party showing it off. In the latter, the intent is to definitely show off the physique.


Most people wouldn't disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:58 am 
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mia.s wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Further sleuthing reveals that the "Marylike" standards were the creation of a Fr. Bernard A. Kunkel in 1944, which means that they have no magisterial standing whatsoever.

Mind you, I find modern-day fashions appalling.


I agree with you on a LOT of modern-day fashions.

Also, isn't it rather fascinating how there are many ideas and beliefs in Catholicism that have no Magisterial standing, yet people accept them as such? I have a feeling if I were to say, "btw these have no magisterial standing" and explained why on a different forum, people would be very quick to attack me. Or accuse me of other things that aren't very polite, which I will not utter here.


There are many things that Catholic's believe that currently have no Magisterial standing. That doesn't mean those beliefs are in error. The Assumption of Mary was believed for centuries before it was officially declared dogma at Vatican I (IIRC).

It's simply not practical for the Magisterium to issue a teaching on every subject that could ever be discussed or considered. There are moral truths that can easily be derived from scripture, tradition, encyclicals, bulls and teachings on other subjects which help inform us about something the Church hasn't yet clearly taught.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:21 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
mia.s wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Further sleuthing reveals that the "Marylike" standards were the creation of a Fr. Bernard A. Kunkel in 1944, which means that they have no magisterial standing whatsoever.

Mind you, I find modern-day fashions appalling.


I agree with you on a LOT of modern-day fashions.

Also, isn't it rather fascinating how there are many ideas and beliefs in Catholicism that have no Magisterial standing, yet people accept them as such? I have a feeling if I were to say, "btw these have no magisterial standing" and explained why on a different forum, people would be very quick to attack me. Or accuse me of other things that aren't very polite, which I will not utter here.


There are many things that Catholic's believe that currently have no Magisterial standing. That doesn't mean those beliefs are in error. The Assumption of Mary was believed for centuries before it was officially declared dogma at Vatican I (IIRC).

It's simply not practical for the Magisterium to issue a teaching on every subject that could ever be discussed or considered. There are moral truths that can easily be derived from scripture, tradition, encyclicals, bulls and teachings on other subjects which help inform us about something the Church hasn't yet clearly taught.


A lot of the things I see floating around as "the Magisterium said so" range from women's hair length requirements, to the Marian standards, to whether married women should work outside the home, what constitutes a "traditional" Catholic, etc. It's odd to notice that many of these beliefs often pertain to what women should or shouldn't do. Such as with the modesty standard.

I bring up that one in particular because there are a lot of people who are convinced that women are sinning if they aren't wearing makeup to Mass (to look their best), they're sinning if they show some upper arm with short sleeves, aren't wearing tops 2-fingers breadth from the pit of the throat, are sinning, if they have short hair, etc. Many times when I witness these things I wonder if these people are committed to understanding the heart of Catholic teaching and using their conscience to be responsible toward others. There is a sense life is easier with set "rules" that leave no room for discussion, which is understandable (as it sets a bar).


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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:35 pm 
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mia.s wrote:
Peetem wrote:
mia.s wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Further sleuthing reveals that the "Marylike" standards were the creation of a Fr. Bernard A. Kunkel in 1944, which means that they have no magisterial standing whatsoever.

Mind you, I find modern-day fashions appalling.


I agree with you on a LOT of modern-day fashions.

Also, isn't it rather fascinating how there are many ideas and beliefs in Catholicism that have no Magisterial standing, yet people accept them as such? I have a feeling if I were to say, "btw these have no magisterial standing" and explained why on a different forum, people would be very quick to attack me. Or accuse me of other things that aren't very polite, which I will not utter here.


There are many things that Catholic's believe that currently have no Magisterial standing. That doesn't mean those beliefs are in error. The Assumption of Mary was believed for centuries before it was officially declared dogma at Vatican I (IIRC).

It's simply not practical for the Magisterium to issue a teaching on every subject that could ever be discussed or considered. There are moral truths that can easily be derived from scripture, tradition, encyclicals, bulls and teachings on other subjects which help inform us about something the Church hasn't yet clearly taught.


A lot of the things I see floating around as "the Magisterium said so" range from women's hair length requirements, to the Marian standards, to whether married women should work outside the home, what constitutes a "traditional" Catholic, etc. It's odd to notice that many of these beliefs often pertain to what women should or shouldn't do. Such as with the modesty standard.

I bring up that one in particular because there are a lot of people who are convinced that women are sinning if they aren't wearing makeup to Mass (to look their best), they're sinning if they show some upper arm with short sleeves, aren't wearing tops 2-fingers breadth from the pit of the throat, are sinning, if they have short hair, etc. Many times when I witness these things I wonder if these people are committed to understanding the heart of Catholic teaching and using their conscience to be responsible toward others. There is a sense life is easier with set "rules" that leave no room for discussion, which is understandable (as it sets a bar).


Rejoice!!

If this is all they have to worry about, all our other problems must have been solved! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:50 am 
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To address a specific example in the decree, if a woman is wearing shorts within the privacy of her own home is she sinning? What if she changes into something else to leave the house? Now what happens if she wears a low-cut top at home (because her husband likes it, and yes those husbands exist) but throws on a cardigan to answer the door- is she sinning?

If a woman wears short sleeve tops or dresses with a modest hemline, is she sinning? If the decree is teaching a semi-authoritative truth, is not following it 100% constituting any sin?

The decree is very clear that women shouldn't wear pants, shorts, low-cut tops, sheer fabrics, but why can't women wear them in their own homes? Why can't women wear pants or sheer fabrics appropriately?

Why does it seem like the Church has directed many of these teachings toward women, while there are hardly any directed toward men? We wonder why it's not common sense for a man to not go waltzing around in a tight muscle shirt, and here we have it.


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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:19 am 
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mia.s wrote:
The decree is very clear that women shouldn't wear pants, shorts, low-cut tops, sheer fabrics, but why can't women wear them in their own homes? Why can't women wear pants or sheer fabrics appropriately?

I don't know what the decree says but I imagine it applies to what women wear in public.

Quote:
Why does it seem like the Church has directed many of these teachings toward women, while there are hardly any directed toward men? We wonder why it's not common sense for a man to not go waltzing around in a tight muscle shirt, and here we have it.

Probably because there were trends toward immodesty that the Church wanted to address at the time, and for whatever reason the Church has not seen fit to address immodesty at all in many years, and so hasn't addressed the recent trends in menswear.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:45 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Probably because there were trends toward immodesty that the Church wanted to address at the time, and for whatever reason the Church has not seen fit to address immodesty at all in many years, and so hasn't addressed the recent trends in menswear.


And to your point - there are probably 50 other issues that are more pressing than modesty right now. Top of the list - the current discussions around gender, gay "marriage", abortion, communion for the married and divorced, contraception, the rights of workers, the Church in China, and etc

I would hope the Church is more interested in many other things before modesty.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:09 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Probably because there were trends toward immodesty that the Church wanted to address at the time, and for whatever reason the Church has not seen fit to address immodesty at all in many years, and so hasn't addressed the recent trends in menswear.


And to your point - there are probably 50 other issues that are more pressing than modesty right now. Top of the list - the current discussions around gender, gay "marriage", abortion, communion for the married and divorced, contraception, the rights of workers, the Church in China, and etc

I would hope the Church is more interested in many other things before modesty.

I'm gonna vote no on this. There are only 7 deadly sins, and deliberately inciting lust isn't a minor matter to be pushed aside until the pastors of the Church can manage to find some time to address it.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:27 pm 
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Again, it's not a decree. It's a list created by one concerned pastor.

And I agree with ... the weather has been cool the last few days.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:31 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
Probably because there were trends toward immodesty that the Church wanted to address at the time, and for whatever reason the Church has not seen fit to address immodesty at all in many years, and so hasn't addressed the recent trends in menswear.


And to your point - there are probably 50 other issues that are more pressing than modesty right now. Top of the list - the current discussions around gender, gay "marriage", abortion, communion for the married and divorced, contraception, the rights of workers, the Church in China, and etc

I would hope the Church is more interested in many other things before modesty.

I'm gonna vote no on this. There are only 7 deadly sins, and deliberately inciting lust isn't a minor matter to be pushed aside until the pastors of the Church can manage to find some time to address it.


I don't disagree, but I didn't make my point well.

Do we think the Church can easily, clearly, and quickly develop standards of dress, relative to the cultural norms of each society on the planet? I would offer no.

However, the Church can easily, clearly, and quickly in unambiguous language say "stop abortion, it's murder" to any society, regardless the cultural norms. The same thing applies to gay "marriage" (a sin which cries out to heaven)....or rights of workers (withholding pay, another sin which cries out to heaven).

So from that point of view, I don't see policing dress as much a burning platform to spend precious resources as compared to a host of other sinful activities that are also directly associated with the 7 deadly sins.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:43 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Do we think the Church can easily, clearly, and quickly develop standards of dress, relative to the cultural norms of each society on the planet? I would offer no.

However, the Church can easily, clearly, and quickly in unambiguous language say "stop abortion, it's murder" to any society, regardless the cultural norms. The same thing applies to gay "marriage" (a sin which cries out to heaven)....or rights of workers (withholding pay, another sin which cries out to heaven).

So from that point of view, I don't see policing dress as much a burning platform to spend precious resources as compared to a host of other sinful activities that are also directly associated with the 7 deadly sins.

The great thing about a Church with over 1 billion members is that it can do more than one thing at a time.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:28 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Peetem wrote:
Do we think the Church can easily, clearly, and quickly develop standards of dress, relative to the cultural norms of each society on the planet? I would offer no.

However, the Church can easily, clearly, and quickly in unambiguous language say "stop abortion, it's murder" to any society, regardless the cultural norms. The same thing applies to gay "marriage" (a sin which cries out to heaven)....or rights of workers (withholding pay, another sin which cries out to heaven).

So from that point of view, I don't see policing dress as much a burning platform to spend precious resources as compared to a host of other sinful activities that are also directly associated with the 7 deadly sins.

The great thing about a Church with over 1 billion members is that it can do more than one thing at a time.


This is effective when there's agreement. Despite culture, Catholics believe abortion is wrong. Catholics believe gay marriage is wrong (esp. considering in other parts of the world there are harsher social punishments). Yet, we won't have a lot of agreement across cultures on hemlines, whether it's allowed for women to wear pants, whether women are supposed to wear mantillas at Mass vs. hats, can women braid their hair, etc.

We are still arguing about the latter for various reasons. When there's argument about the former two, it can easily be stated that those individuals are in direct disobedience and disagreement with the Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:55 am 
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mia.s wrote:
This is effective when there's agreement. Despite culture, Catholics believe abortion is wrong. Catholics believe gay marriage is wrong (esp. considering in other parts of the world there are harsher social punishments). Yet, we won't have a lot of agreement across cultures on hemlines, whether it's allowed for women to wear pants, whether women are supposed to wear mantillas at Mass vs. hats, can women braid their hair, etc.

We are still arguing about the latter for various reasons. When there's argument about the former two, it can easily be stated that those individuals are in direct disobedience and disagreement with the Church.


Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:56 am 
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My point isn't that there is broad agreement on what constitutes immodesty (especially where local customs are taken into account), my point is only that the Church does have the resources to address it. And it's not exactly like there is broad agreement on the two issues you mentioned!

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 Post subject: Re: Church teaching on modesty
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:30 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
My point isn't that there is broad agreement on what constitutes immodesty (especially where local customs are taken into account), my point is only that the Church does have the resources to address it. And it's not exactly like there is broad agreement on the two issues you mentioned!


Short of someone walking around half-naked, the disagreements noted by mia.s are brasher; in that even outsiders have a fair amount of clarity that it is not ok to deviate from the Church's position. That really isn't the case with modesty.

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Last edited by Dominic on Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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