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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:32 pm 
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Yoga wrote:
Would anyone be upset or disappointed if every person who ever lived, or ever will live, ended up with everyone else in an eternal heaven? Buddhists, Catholics, Nazis, Unitarians, athiests - all together in an eternal heaven. Everybody saved!


Yes I would be upset, because that would make Scripture and Jesus (hence God) a liar. If God Almighty is a liar, there is no Good.

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If you had the ability to choose this situation, if you were given the power to make this happen, would you?


I can not say that I could choose anything that would be deemed better than what God has chosen as Good and Just. When He gave free will, He also gave the possibility to not choose Him.

In your scenario, heaven would have to contain either (1) humans who never had been given any choices (robots), or (2) humans who had done/believed whatever they wanted and there was no "right and wrong" laid out, nor any consequences. We know for a fact that neither of those describe how God laid things out- and we are given the proof in Scripture.



:soap:
Satan loves to deceive people- doesn't it sound SO ENTICING to think everyone should be saved because God is a God of LOVE. Everyone needs to stop listening to Satan's enticement and listen to what God has said on the subject! I've heard it said that while Jesus was on earth, he said more about those who will be lost than he did about Heaven. Make no mistake, many will be lost, and it's our given job to get the Good News out so they can be saved.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:14 pm 
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W4f wrote:
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There are other verses in the Bible which suggest that it won't be just a few who find "life". You probably know them better than I do. (I haven't time to find them right now.)



No, there aren't. I would like to see them if there are. Now, I'm not Catholic anymore, but I do know that the early Church Fathers all believed the same thing that this verse says- that most of humanity will not see Heaven.

I'll find those verses for you - when I have more time. (I won't forget!)

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The Word (Scripture, Jesus) tell us everything we need to know for salvation.

Which version? Which bible (or bibles) do you believe is the unerring word of God (if that's what you believe)? There is no use in me quoting you verses from a bible which you dispute. So which bible would you like me to quote from?

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I'm glad you're not arguing Universalism

I'm not arguing for it nor am I arguing against it. I am currently open minded or agnostic about it.

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Torn, if someone murdered your mother, what would you think of a Judge who did not send that person to prison, but let them run free in society unpunished, unrepentant, and worse of all, unchanged? You'd think he was the worst of Judges in the world, not that he was loving.

If someone murdered my mother I would want that person punished and prevented from doing anything like that again, but I would not want that person eternally tortured with absolutely no opportunity to repent and escape the torture. Neither would any judge in any civilised society. What good would eternal torture, with no hope of escape, do anyone? Jesus taught that we should forgive our enemies.

How about you? If someone murdered your mother, would you want that person to be eternally tortured?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:39 pm 
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PED wrote:
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Torn, you don't know Greek. Instead of acting like an expert...

Do you know Greek? Are you an expert?

How do you know what my knowledge of Greek is?

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Actually, aeternus is itself derive from aeternum, which was original aeviternum. This Latin word WAS DERIVED FROM THE GREEK AEON/AIONIN

How do you know? Am I supposed to just take your word for it?

The word manufactured is derived from the Latin manu and factum: factum = "made", manu = "by hand". So does "manufactured" mean "made by hand"?

What is the point you are making?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:31 pm 
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you should do the smart thing and realise that the experts say it can be translated wither way depending on the context

At least then you agree that the word "aeonian" does not clearly and unambiguously mean "eternal", that it does not literally mean "eternal".

So is this the story? Correct me if I am wrong: God doesn't bother to tell the human beings He created about the possibility that they could suffer everlasting torture - if they aren't careful - until sometime in the first century AD. And then when he finally gets around to telling people - for the very first time - he explains it to them in one short little verse ("And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal") using an ambiguous word (which in another context in the "unerring word of God" - Jude 1:7 - clearly doesn't mean "everlasting") using a word which does not literally mean "everlasting", even though there are Greek words and phrases which clearly and unambiguously do mean "everlasting"!

I think that's a hell of a lot for me to swallow.

(And also the word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word "kolasin" which means "punishment, chastening, correction". )

Quote:
IT CAN MEAN EITHER ETERNAL OR A LONG AGE

Words aren't always translated the same. The context helps...

...Context would help, don't you think?!

Quote:
the experts say it can be translated wither way depending on the context

The context is that God is an all-powerful God of unconditional love and infinite mercy. So why would I want to twist a word to make Him into a monstrous sadist or, at the very least, an incredibly negligent being who doesn't give a damn if many of the imperfect human beings He created end up suffering eternal torture, and allows human beings to remain ignorant of this incredibly awful possibility for thousands of years, and then, after many have gone to their eternal torture, decides to vaguely tell people in a few ambiguous words?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:51 pm 
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torn, you are obstinate and a heretic

I am entitled to my belief just as much as you are entitled to your belief, PED.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:05 pm 
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When He gave free will, He also gave the possibility to not choose Him.

In your scenario, heaven would have to contain either (1) humans who never had been given any choices (robots), or (2) humans who had done/believed whatever they wanted and there was no "right and wrong" laid out, nor any consequences.

What if God put no limit on when we could choose Him, no cut-off point in regard to when we could repent? If He gave us an eternity to choose Him, or not choose Him, to freely repent or not repent, as the case me be, with no compulsion - along with appropriate and just punishment (correction) for wrong actions. So hypothetically a person might never choose God, and thus be eternally separated from God, but any ordinary decent reasonable person would almost certainly freely choose God - see the light - eventually (though perhaps only after a lot of suffering). Would anyone be upset or disappointed if that were the case?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:46 pm 
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torn wrote:
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When He gave free will, He also gave the possibility to not choose Him.

In your scenario, heaven would have to contain either (1) humans who never had been given any choices (robots), or (2) humans who had done/believed whatever they wanted and there was no "right and wrong" laid out, nor any consequences.

What if God put no limit on when we could choose Him, no cut-off point in regard to when we could repent? If He gave us an eternity to choose Him, or not choose Him, to freely repent or not repent, as the case me be, with no compulsion - along with appropriate and just punishment (correction) for wrong actions. So hypothetically a person might never choose God, and thus be eternally separated from God, but any ordinary decent reasonable person would almost certainly freely choose God - see the light - eventually (though perhaps only after a lot of suffering). Would anyone be upset or disappointed if that were the case?


Torn, I see that you have a compassionate heart. But, just because we desire something to be a certain way, doesn't mean that is the reality of it. Scripture is very clear man is appointed to die once and THEN BE JUDGED. No where in scripture does anyone get a second chance, 2nd judgement or bail after the Great White Throne Judgement. The firey lake, which is where the goats and Satan and his demons are thrown, is called the 2nd Death. There is no escape.

Have you read Romans 9 before? Again, it is some very tough stuff to read. But, we are supposed to put on the Armor of God to equip ourselves for our walk- including the breastplate of righteousness, the helmet of salvation, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Scripture), the belt of Truth, etc, etc. You must wear the belt of Truth, not stay in wishful thinking. Look at what we are told in Romans 9:

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

God is the Potter, torn. Like PED said earlier, some will suffer his wrath for His Justice to be fulfilled since they have not believed Him. Some vessels are for noble purposes, and some for common. Romans tells us this is to show his wrath and make his power known. Those that are saved are saved from something truly terrible, not temporary, which is why it "makes the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy".

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:20 am 
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Torn, I see that you have a compassionate heart.

I'm sure you have too. So how much more compassionate is the God of unconditional love and infinite mercy, who created both you and me?

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just because we desire something to be a certain way, doesn't mean that is the reality of it.

And just because we desire something to be a certain way, doesn't mean that is not the reality of it. You desire that there is a heaven to which you can go - just because you desire that, doesn't mean there is no heaven.

You haven't told me which bible you believe is the unerring word of God. Do you believe the Douay-Rheims bible is the unerring word of God? If not, which bible(s) do you believe is (are) the unerring word of God?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:25 pm 
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torn wrote:
You haven't told me which bible you believe is the unerring word of God. Do you believe the Douay-Rheims bible is the unerring word of God? If not, which bible(s) do you believe is (are) the unerring word of God?


I have both the Catholic New American Bible, and the NIV Bible. There is no difference in information/content regarding what is necessary to achieve salvation {the Gospel message}.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:27 pm 
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torn wrote:
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torn, you are obstinate and a heretic

I am entitled to my belief just as much as you are entitled to your belief, PED.

I am not entitled to just any belief though and neither are you. You have a duty, a moral obligation, to the Truth. To heed the Church.

You can believe what you want, but you will be held responsible for it in the end

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:31 pm 
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W4f wrote;
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Oh okay. So, how do you correlate that thinking with what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

As I previously said, perhaps it means only a few "find the road that leads to life" at that particular time, in that particular age. You have to remember whom Jesus was talking to, when He said those words. He wasn't talking to people in the future, he was talking to people at that present time. He didn't say that only a few will ever find "the road that leads to life". Here are some (not all) verses which suggest that it isn't just a few who will find the "road that leads to life": I have quoted from the Douay-Rheims bible (unless otherwise stated, when the meaning isn't clear in the D-R bible), you can check them out in whatever bible you prefer:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
Quote:
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


John 12:44-47
Quote:
But Jesus cried and said: He that believeth in me doth not believe in me, but in him that sent me. And he that seeth me, seeth him that sent me. I am come, a light into the world, that whosoever believeth in me may not remain in darkness. And if any man hear my words and keep them not, I do not judge him for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
(Not "to save" just "a few")


Romans 5:15-21
Quote:
But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation: but grace is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift and of justice shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation: so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just. Now the law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound. That as sin hath reigned to death: so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.



1 Corinthians 15:20-24
Quote:
But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep: For by a man came death: and by a man the resurrection of the dead. And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But every one in his own order: the firstfruits, Christ: then they that are of Christ, who have believed in his coming. Afterwards the end: when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father: when he shall have brought to nought all principality and power and virtue.


Ephesians 1:10 (King James Bible)
Quote:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:


Philippians 2:9-11 and 1 Corinthians 12:3
Quote:
Quote:
For which cause, God also hath exalted him and hath given him a name which is above all names: That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.


Quote:
Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost.
(So, in other words, it says " in the name of Jesus every knee should bow... every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father" and "no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost". It doesn't say that many will do so insincerely or be involuntarily coerced to do so.)

Romans 11:26
Quote:
And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.


Luke 2:9-11
Quote:
And behold an angel of the Lord stood by them and the brightness of God shone round about them: and they feared with a great fear. And the angel said to them: Fear not; for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy that shall be to all the people: For, this day is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David.
(Not "good tidings of great joy that shall be to a few people"!)


Hebrews 8:10-12 (NIV)
Quote:
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.


I Timothy 4:10
Quote:
For therefore we labour and are reviled, because we hope in For therefore we labour and are reviled, because we hope in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful.
(Note: it says "...the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful" - it clearly does not say "...the living God, who is the Saviour of some men, only of the faithful"!

Lamentations 3:31-32
Quote:
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. For if he hath cast off, he will also have mercy, according to the multitude of his mercies.


Psalms 22:26-27
Quote:
The poor shall eat and shall be filled: and they shall praise the Lord that seek him: their hearts shall live for ever and ever. All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the kindreds of the Gentiles shall adore in his sight.
(Note: it says "the poor... shall praise the Lord that seek him: their hearts shall live for ever and ever" - not just some of the poor who practise the "correct" religion, or whatever"!)

Psalms 145:8-10
Quote:
The Lord is gracious and merciful: patient and plenteous in mercy. The Lord is sweet to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. Let all thy works, O lord, praise thee: and let thy saints bless thee.


Psalms 145:14-15
Quote:
The Lord lifteth up all that fall: and setteth up all that are cast down. The eyes of all hope in thee, O Lord:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:50 pm 
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There are approximately two billion Christians in the world today (approximately one billion Catholics), and many millions more in the past (and many more in the future).

Now accepting that not all of those two billion are good practising Christians, is it really feasible to suggest that only "a few" will be saved?

When you bear in mind that there are more than six billion people in the world, if it were really true that only "a few" will be saved - and the rest, as you and others here believe, will be condemned to suffer eternal torture - then the statistical chance of any (average) human being ending up suffering eternal torture is extremely high - certainly much more likely than not. In which case, abortionists and child murderers are doing most of their "victims" a huge favour, by preventing them from ending up suffering eternal torture (if you believe God does not condemn unborn babies and children to suffer eternal torture)! Of course that is absurd, and that's why I don't believe it for one moment.

As I said, I believe that everyone will return to God - eventually - with the possible exception of some truly evil unreformable people whose conscious existence will be obliterated (which is certainly an everlasting punishment).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:30 pm 
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PED wrote:
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You can believe what you want, but you will be held responsible for it in the end

Answer me this question, PED. If I were to practise Catholicism in every way, as well as could be reasonably expected, and not break any of the commandments, and do as the bible and the Church teaches, and believe everything a Catholic is supposed to believe - with the exception that I refuse to believe in eternal torture and I refuse to believe that Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc, can not also be saved (or, to put it another way, if I reinterpret the Church's traditional teaching in regard to hell, just as many Catholics have reinterpreted the Church's traditional teaching in regard to "Outside the Church there is no salvation"), do you think that would put me in danger of being condemned to suffer the eternal torture you believe in? Do you believe it would put me in any more danger of eternal torture than if I accepted the traditional teaching about hell?

Do you think - if I was otherwise a very good practicing Catholic - that the God of unconditional love and infinite mercy (which you and I both believe in) would judge that I should suffer eternal torture - rather than go to heaven - just because I didn't believe in eternal torture, just because I believe God is too loving and merciful to allow any human being to suffer eternal torture?!!! Is that really what you are saying, that I would be in danger of that happening to me? How absurd would that be!!! If that's what you believe, then what kind of a spiteful sadistic God do you believe in? If that's not what you believe (and hopefully it's not), what then do you mean when you say:
Quote:
you will be held responsible for it in the end
?

Please tell me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:11 pm 
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torn wrote:
Answer me this question, PED. If I were to practise Catholicism in every way, as well as could be reasonably expected, and not break any of the commandments, and do as the bible and the Church teaches, and believe everything a Catholic is supposed to believe - with the exception that I refuse to believe in eternal torture and I refuse to believe that Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc, can not also be saved (or, to put it another way, if I reinterpret the Church's traditional teaching in regard to hell, just as many Catholics have reinterpreted the Church's traditional teaching in regard to "Outside the Church there is no salvation"), do you think that would put me in danger of being condemned to suffer the eternal torture you believe in? Do you believe it would put me in any more danger of eternal torture than if I accepted the traditional teaching about hell?


You are and would be a heretic, having broken the first commandment.

What you propose is impossible. That is to reject Church teaching on one hand, and yet not to break any commandments. And a heresy, if it be formal, will damn you. I am not God, I cannot judge your heart. I know not whether your heresy is formal or material. What I do know though is that a formal heretic cannot attain salvation if he dies in error.

Heresy is a mortal sin against faith

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:23 am 
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The Catholic Church was given the authority to bind and loose by Christ. If you choose to not follow her, not only is that Formal, but it is very foolish because your not trusting in the one who established the Church. Jesus Christ came to this earth and died for your sins. To deny His mission and purpose for your soul would be serious heresy. Without Him we can do nothing.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:11 am 
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And a heresy, if it be formal, will damn you....I know not whether your heresy is formal or material. What I do know though is that a formal heretic cannot attain salvation if he dies in error

What's the difference between "formal" and "material" "heresy"?

What exactly is heresy?

Is it heresy to believe that Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, can attain salvation (without ever becoming Catholics or Christians in this lifetime) - i.e. not be condemned to suffer eternal torture?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:08 am 
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Titus 3:10! Basically any Baptized Christian who denies one or more defined truths of the Catholic Church is Formal Heresy. The difference is the degree of responnsibility. If you were raised and taught wrong such as a Protestant, that could pass as Material where there is no sin. A sin must be a knowledgable willful act of defiance against God.

A Catholic who developes wrongful opinions would be Formal Heresy!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:32 pm 
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torn wrote:
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And a heresy, if it be formal, will damn you....I know not whether your heresy is formal or material. What I do know though is that a formal heretic cannot attain salvation if he dies in error

What's the difference between "formal" and "material" "heresy"?

What exactly is heresy?


The obstinate post baptismal denial or wilful doubt of some truth to be held with Faith

For instance, the reality of Hell, the immortality of the soul (it won't be annihilated), etc.

Material heresy is when we hold something contrary to Faith, but out of innocent ignorance. So when a Catholic, for instance, errs on an obscure dogma (say the Divine Perichosis) it is likely he errs in good faith. A formal heretic errs culpably, he sins and is culpable for that sin. Only God can judge this.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:31 pm 
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For instance, the reality of Hell, the immortality of the soul (it won't be annihilated), etc.

I believe in hell - I just don't believe that it's eternal, unless someone eternally chooses not to turn to God. But I don't believe God takes away the possibility for a person to turn to God. God is infinitely merciful, which means He doesn't cease to be merciful the moment a person dies.

And I don't believe a soul can be annihilated (though I could be wrong). But I believe that God could possibly obliterate a person's conscious existence. It can happen in this lifetime (temporarily), so why couldn't it somehow happen in the next lifetime (permanently)? I don't say that's definitely the case, I'm just saying it's a possibility. Just because a person doesn't go to heaven, doesn't mean a person necessarily has to suffer eternal torture. If that were the case, then limbo would be eternal torture. I'm sure God doesn't condemn unbaptised babies, and aborted unborn babies, to suffer eternal torture. Yet do they go to heaven, according to your beliefs?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:39 pm 
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Journeyman
Journeyman

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And I don't believe a soul can be annihilated (though I could be wrong).


I've thought about that and I don't know of any "official" answer, but since God is infinitely powerful and He can do whatever he wants, then God can destroy a soul.


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