Yes I would be upset, because that would make Scripture and Jesus (hence God) a liar. If God Almighty is a liar, there is no Good.



I can not say that I could choose anything that would be deemed better than what God has chosen as Good and Just. When He gave free will, He also gave the possibility to not choose Him.

In your scenario, heaven would have to contain either (1) humans who never had been given any choices (robots), or (2) humans who had done/believed whatever they wanted and there was no "right and wrong" laid out, nor any consequences. We know for a fact that neither of those describe how God laid things out- and we are given the proof in Scripture.




Satan loves to deceive people- doesn't it sound SO ENTICING to think everyone should be saved because God is a God of LOVE. Everyone needs to stop listening to Satan's enticement and listen to what God has said on the subject! I've heard it said that while Jesus was on earth, he said more about those who will be lost than he did about Heaven. Make no mistake, many will be lost, and it's our given job to get the Good News out so they can be saved.

W4f wrote:

I'll find those verses for you - when I have more time. (I won't forget!)


Which version? Which bible (or bibles) do you believe is the unerring word of God (if that's what you believe)? There is no use in me quoting you verses from a bible which you dispute. So which bible would you like me to quote from?


I'm not arguing for it nor am I arguing against it. I am currently open minded or agnostic about it.


If someone murdered my mother I would want that person punished and prevented from doing anything like that again, but I would not want that person eternally tortured with absolutely no opportunity to repent and escape the torture. Neither would any judge in any civilised society. What good would eternal torture, with no hope of escape, do anyone? Jesus taught that we should forgive our enemies.

How about you? If someone murdered your mother, would you want that person to be eternally tortured?

PED wrote:

Do you know Greek? Are you an expert?

How do you know what my knowledge of Greek is?


How do you know? Am I supposed to just take your word for it?

The word manufactured is derived from the Latin manu and factum: factum = "made", manu = "by hand". So does "manufactured" mean "made by hand"?

What is the point you are making?

At least then you agree that the word "aeonian" does not clearly and unambiguously mean "eternal", that it does not literally mean "eternal".

So is this the story? Correct me if I am wrong: God doesn't bother to tell the human beings He created about the possibility that they could suffer everlasting torture - if they aren't careful - until sometime in the first century AD. And then when he finally gets around to telling people - for the very first time - he explains it to them in one short little verse ("And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal") using an ambiguous word (which in another context in the "unerring word of God" - Jude 1:7 - clearly doesn't mean "everlasting") using a word which does not literally mean "everlasting", even though there are Greek words and phrases which clearly and unambiguously do mean "everlasting"!

I think that's a hell of a lot for me to swallow.

(And also the word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word "kolasin" which means "punishment, chastening, correction". )



The context is that God is an all-powerful God of unconditional love and infinite mercy. So why would I want to twist a word to make Him into a monstrous sadist or, at the very least, an incredibly negligent being who doesn't give a damn if many of the imperfect human beings He created end up suffering eternal torture, and allows human beings to remain ignorant of this incredibly awful possibility for thousands of years, and then, after many have gone to their eternal torture, decides to vaguely tell people in a few ambiguous words?

I am entitled to my belief just as much as you are entitled to your belief, PED.

What if God put no limit on when we could choose Him, no cut-off point in regard to when we could repent? If He gave us an eternity to choose Him, or not choose Him, to freely repent or not repent, as the case me be, with no compulsion - along with appropriate and just punishment (correction) for wrong actions. So hypothetically a person might never choose God, and thus be eternally separated from God, but any ordinary decent reasonable person would almost certainly freely choose God - see the light - eventually (though perhaps only after a lot of suffering). Would anyone be upset or disappointed if that were the case?

Torn, I see that you have a compassionate heart. But, just because we desire something to be a certain way, doesn't mean that is the reality of it. Scripture is very clear man is appointed to die once and THEN BE JUDGED. No where in scripture does anyone get a second chance, 2nd judgement or bail after the Great White Throne Judgement. The firey lake, which is where the goats and Satan and his demons are thrown, is called the 2nd Death. There is no escape.

Have you read Romans 9 before? Again, it is some very tough stuff to read. But, we are supposed to put on the Armor of God to equip ourselves for our walk- including the breastplate of righteousness, the helmet of salvation, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Scripture), the belt of Truth, etc, etc. You must wear the belt of Truth, not stay in wishful thinking. Look at what we are told in Romans 9:

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

God is the Potter, torn. Like PED said earlier, some will suffer his wrath for His Justice to be fulfilled since they have not believed Him. Some vessels are for noble purposes, and some for common. Romans tells us this is to show his wrath and make his power known. Those that are saved are saved from something truly terrible, not temporary, which is why it "makes the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy".

I'm sure you have too. So how much more compassionate is the God of unconditional love and infinite mercy, who created both you and me?


And just because we desire something to be a certain way, doesn't mean that is not the reality of it. You desire that there is a heaven to which you can go - just because you desire that, doesn't mean there is no heaven.

You haven't told me which bible you believe is the unerring word of God. Do you believe the Douay-Rheims bible is the unerring word of God? If not, which bible(s) do you believe is (are) the unerring word of God?

I have both the Catholic New American Bible, and the NIV Bible. There is no difference in information/content regarding what is necessary to achieve salvation {the Gospel message}.

I am not entitled to just any belief though and neither are you. You have a duty, a moral obligation, to the Truth. To heed the Church.

You can believe what you want, but you will be held responsible for it in the end

W4f wrote;

As I previously said, perhaps it means only a few "find the road that leads to life" at that particular time, in that particular age. You have to remember whom Jesus was talking to, when He said those words. He wasn't talking to people in the future, he was talking to people at that present time. He didn't say that only a few will ever find "the road that leads to life". Here are some (not all) verses which suggest that it isn't just a few who will find the "road that leads to life": I have quoted from the Douay-Rheims bible (unless otherwise stated, when the meaning isn't clear in the D-R bible), you can check them out in whatever bible you prefer:

1 Timothy 2:3-4


John 12:44-47
(Not "to save" just "a few")


Romans 5:15-21



1 Corinthians 15:20-24


Ephesians 1:10 (King James Bible)


Philippians 2:9-11 and 1 Corinthians 12:3
(So, in other words, it says " in the name of Jesus every knee should bow... every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father" and "no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost". It doesn't say that many will do so insincerely or be involuntarily coerced to do so.)

Romans 11:26


Luke 2:9-11
(Not "good tidings of great joy that shall be to a few people"!)


Hebrews 8:10-12 (NIV)


I Timothy 4:10
(Note: it says "...the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of the faithful" - it clearly does not say "...the living God, who is the Saviour of some men, only of the faithful"!

Lamentations 3:31-32


Psalms 22:26-27
(Note: it says "the poor... shall praise the Lord that seek him: their hearts shall live for ever and ever" - not just some of the poor who practise the "correct" religion, or whatever"!)

Psalms 145:8-10


Psalms 145:14-15

There are approximately two billion Christians in the world today (approximately one billion Catholics), and many millions more in the past (and many more in the future).

Now accepting that not all of those two billion are good practising Christians, is it really feasible to suggest that only "a few" will be saved?

When you bear in mind that there are more than six billion people in the world, if it were really true that only "a few" will be saved - and the rest, as you and others here believe, will be condemned to suffer eternal torture - then the statistical chance of any (average) human being ending up suffering eternal torture is extremely high - certainly much more likely than not. In which case, abortionists and child murderers are doing most of their "victims" a huge favour, by preventing them from ending up suffering eternal torture (if you believe God does not condemn unborn babies and children to suffer eternal torture)! Of course that is absurd, and that's why I don't believe it for one moment.

As I said, I believe that everyone will return to God - eventually - with the possible exception of some truly evil unreformable people whose conscious existence will be obliterated (which is certainly an everlasting punishment).

PED wrote:

Answer me this question, PED. If I were to practise Catholicism in every way, as well as could be reasonably expected, and not break any of the commandments, and do as the bible and the Church teaches, and believe everything a Catholic is supposed to believe - with the exception that I refuse to believe in eternal torture and I refuse to believe that Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc, can not also be saved (or, to put it another way, if I reinterpret the Church's traditional teaching in regard to hell, just as many Catholics have reinterpreted the Church's traditional teaching in regard to "Outside the Church there is no salvation"), do you think that would put me in danger of being condemned to suffer the eternal torture you believe in? Do you believe it would put me in any more danger of eternal torture than if I accepted the traditional teaching about hell?

Do you think - if I was otherwise a very good practicing Catholic - that the God of unconditional love and infinite mercy (which you and I both believe in) would judge that I should suffer eternal torture - rather than go to heaven - just because I didn't believe in eternal torture, just because I believe God is too loving and merciful to allow any human being to suffer eternal torture?!!! Is that really what you are saying, that I would be in danger of that happening to me? How absurd would that be!!! If that's what you believe, then what kind of a spiteful sadistic God do you believe in? If that's not what you believe (and hopefully it's not), what then do you mean when you say:
?

Please tell me.

You are and would be a heretic, having broken the first commandment.

What you propose is impossible. That is to reject Church teaching on one hand, and yet not to break any commandments. And a heresy, if it be formal, will damn you. I am not God, I cannot judge your heart. I know not whether your heresy is formal or material. What I do know though is that a formal heretic cannot attain salvation if he dies in error.

Heresy is a mortal sin against faith

The Catholic Church was given the authority to bind and loose by Christ. If you choose to not follow her, not only is that Formal, but it is very foolish because your not trusting in the one who established the Church. Jesus Christ came to this earth and died for your sins. To deny His mission and purpose for your soul would be serious heresy. Without Him we can do nothing.

What's the difference between "formal" and "material" "heresy"?

What exactly is heresy?

Is it heresy to believe that Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, can attain salvation (without ever becoming Catholics or Christians in this lifetime) - i.e. not be condemned to suffer eternal torture?

Titus 3:10! Basically any Baptized Christian who denies one or more defined truths of the Catholic Church is Formal Heresy. The difference is the degree of responnsibility. If you were raised and taught wrong such as a Protestant, that could pass as Material where there is no sin. A sin must be a knowledgable willful act of defiance against God.

A Catholic who developes wrongful opinions would be Formal Heresy!

The obstinate post baptismal denial or wilful doubt of some truth to be held with Faith

For instance, the reality of Hell, the immortality of the soul (it won't be annihilated), etc.

Material heresy is when we hold something contrary to Faith, but out of innocent ignorance. So when a Catholic, for instance, errs on an obscure dogma (say the Divine Perichosis) it is likely he errs in good faith. A formal heretic errs culpably, he sins and is culpable for that sin. Only God can judge this.

I believe in hell - I just don't believe that it's eternal, unless someone eternally chooses not to turn to God. But I don't believe God takes away the possibility for a person to turn to God. God is infinitely merciful, which means He doesn't cease to be merciful the moment a person dies.

And I don't believe a soul can be annihilated (though I could be wrong). But I believe that God could possibly obliterate a person's conscious existence. It can happen in this lifetime (temporarily), so why couldn't it somehow happen in the next lifetime (permanently)? I don't say that's definitely the case, I'm just saying it's a possibility. Just because a person doesn't go to heaven, doesn't mean a person necessarily has to suffer eternal torture. If that were the case, then limbo would be eternal torture. I'm sure God doesn't condemn unbaptised babies, and aborted unborn babies, to suffer eternal torture. Yet do they go to heaven, according to your beliefs?

I've thought about that and I don't know of any "official" answer, but since God is infinitely powerful and He can do whatever he wants, then God can destroy a soul.