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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:02 pm 
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One more thing, torn. You seem to believe that the Holy Spirit can speak to you and you hear and understand. Why don't you ask your question directly to the Holy Spirit? You won't believe us, but you will believe Him.

To me, the answer is clear- just like Jesus said "these things have been hidden"--

Matthew 13:35 So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." [referring back to Psalm 78:2]

Luke 9:45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.



Jesus brought to light many things that had been hidden before He came to earth- and His disclosure on eternal punishment is definitely in that category.

But, ask Him yourself and see what He says to you. That alone will give you peace.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:54 pm 
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Torn, how is this different from Catholics looking to the Church to help us on our way? We read the Bible, read other inspirational books and listen to those we feel are very spiritual and guided by the Holy Spirit. Ultimately we have to decide if we believe what we have learned through it all. This is the exact same path you are taking. We aren't so different afterall are we? The difference that I see is most of us here have decided that through our study and prayer we have decided that this is the correct belief and that the Catholic Church will lead us in the right path to God. You are still trying to figure out that path.

That is all correct, Michelle.

I am still learning.

I hope I never stop learning.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:07 pm 
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W4f wrote:
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Now, who exactly had a chance to hear and know anything about God in the Old Testament? Isn't the answer primarily, only Jews? There were occasional outsiders (like Ruth) who came into the fold, but in the Old Testament only believing Jews were saved compared to everyone else in the world at the time.

Under your mindset, you will say this was incredibly negligent of God not to warn the rest of the people of the world.

No, w4f, that is not correct. You are missing the point. What you say about my "mindset" would be correct if I believed that "only believing Jews were saved" and "the rest of the people of the world" were all damned.

But you ought to know me well enough by now to know that that's not what I believe at all! I believe that eventiually everyone will return to God - eventually - with the possible exception of some truly evil people whose conscious existence will be obliterated (everlasting punishment).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:32 pm 
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Jesus is the Word of God.
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He revealed there is an everlasting torment
for those goats on the left at judgment time- at least in Matthew and personally again in Revelation. That's all you need to know- it is True because He said it is.


Not literally "everlasting punishment" - the actual Greek word used in Matthew 25:46 is "aionion" which does not literally mean eternal, it literally means something like "pertaining to an eon" or "lasting an age" - a finite period of time. It has been translated as "eternal" (in some bibles, not all) but it does not literally mean "eternal". There is a Greek word which means "eternal" - "aiodios". (Paul uses the word "aiodios" in Romans 1:20 - "His eternal power also and divinity".) But "aiodios" is not the word used in Matthew 25:46.

(Also the word "punishment" is translated from the Greek word "kolasin" which means "punishment, chastening, correction". )

The same Greek word which Matthew used - "aionion" - is also used in Jude 1:7
Jude 1:7 Douay-Rheims Bible:
Quote:
As Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.


Jude 1:7 King James Bible:
Quote:
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


(You can check it out for yourself, if you can, that it is the same word used in both Matthew 25:46 and Jude 1:7)

But Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighbouring cities are not now burning! Those fires stopped burning a long time ago.

Here are some bible translation which do not artificially translate the Greek word "aionion" in Matthew 25:46:

The New Covenant, 1884
And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.

Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.

The Holy Bible In Modern English (Fenton), 1903
And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

The Twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
And these last will go away into aeonian punishment, but the righteous into aeonian life.

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.


Jesus did not pay particular attention to precise language. That's not what love is about. You always have to remember that Jesus did not write any of the bible. Jesus spoke in Aramaic, his words were written down many years later in ancient Greek (by people who were possibly not even there at the time) and then later pieced together and translated into English and modern English. There is lots of the bible I don't fully understand. I think anyone who claims they fully understand it all is delusional.

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God gave information when and where He deemed fit. If you are going to question why He didn't outline hell as eternal torture in greater detail from day 1, why don't you question why He didn't reveal Himself personally to everyone in the Old Testament times instead of just the Jews? You have to realize and accept in faith that God is Sovereign and knows what is best.


I have to at least give you credit, w4f, for at least attempting to address the question I asked - unlike some others here on this Catholic message board.

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You seem to believe that the Holy Spirit can speak to you and you hear and understand. Why don't you ask your question directly to the Holy Spirit? You won't believe us, but you will believe Him.

I hope I didn't give you the impression that I am hearing voices! ::): The Holy Spirit can "speak" to us all - not in words of course. The Holy Spirit speaks to us through our hearts, when we are willing to listen, when we put ourselves in a position to listen, and to be guided. We all hear and understand, to some extent. I do ask that question to the Holy Spirit, and these are the conclusion I have reached. God is love, more than we can possibly imagine. God is not a monstrous sadist.

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But, ask Him yourself and see what He says to you. That alone will give you peace.

That is good advice.


Last edited by torn on Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:41 pm 
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Torn

The word age is often used superlatively to mean forever. For instance

Per ipsum et cum ipso et in ipso est tibi....per omnia saecula saeculorum

Saecula means age (though often translated as world, as in the creed we say "We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come" it lit "I expect the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come")

Ages of ages means forever.

or better

quia tuum est regnum et potestas et gloria in saecula

literaly

For Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory in ages

As in the Mass

For the kindom, the power and the glory are yours, now and forever
So a word meaning age has a common idiomatic meaning of forever and ever in Latin

"Age" in Latin can also mean "world"

I know your post was about the Greek, but I am just using this as an example. Words are often used idiomatically. And I doubt those fluent in Greek would have translated aionion as everlasting or eternal if there wasn't some basis for that

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:45 pm 
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Also torn

I guess none of us will have eternal life

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.

It turns out that word is used here too. It is used when describing eternal life and eternal punishment. That is right, eternal. It turns out some minor research shows that, though aionion can mean some amount of finite time, it can also mean an eternity

Do some research before you embrace heresy at least

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:46 pm 
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HAh more!!


Eternity

(aeternum, originally aeviternum, aionion, aeon -- long).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm

The very word eternity is derived from aeon, aionion. Torn, just fess uo

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:49 pm 
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torn wrote:
No, w4f, that is not correct. You are missing the point. What you say about my "mindset" would be correct if I believed that "only believing Jews were saved" and "the rest of the people of the world" were all damned.

But you ought to know me well enough by now to know that that's not what I believe at all! I believe that eventiually everyone will return to God - eventually - with the possible exception of some truly evil people whose conscious existence will be obliterated (everlasting punishment).


Oh okay. So, how do you correlate that thinking with what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:09 pm 
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It turns out some minor research shows that, though aionion can mean some amount of finite time, it can also mean an eternity

It can also mean "an eternity" by whom? By those who insist it means "an eternity"!!! That is a completely circular argument PED - a non-argument.

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Also torn

I guess none of us will have eternal life

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
It turns out that word is used here too. It is used when describing eternal life and eternal punishment. That is right, eternal.


Yes PED - I see your point - but so what? It doesn't say in John 6:47 or in Matthew 25:46 (or anywhere else) that we won't have eternal life, it doesn't say that after eons the righteous will be damned or will not enjoy eternal life. It is just a phrase, not to be taken out of context. Who knows exactly what it means? Language is like that. As I said: Jesus did not pay particular attention to precise language. That's not what love is about. It may not even have been precisely what Jesus said. You always have to remember that Jesus did not write any of the bible. Jesus spoke in Aramaic, his words were written down many years later in ancient Greek (by people who were possibly not even there at the time) and then later pieced together and translated into English and modern English. There is lots of the bible I don't fully understand. I think anyone who claims they fully understand it all is delusional.

If it doesn't say "life everlasting" in Matthew 25:46 or "eternal life" in John 6:47 then it doesn't say it. And it doesn't say it - it says "aeonian" life.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:11 pm 
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torn, you are obstinate and a heretic

Does it matter one bit to you that the very word eteranl is DERIVED from aeon?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:11 pm 
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HAh more!!


Eternity

(aeternum, originally aeviternum, aionion, aeon -- long).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm

The very word eternity is derived from aeon, aionion. Torn, just fess uo

As I said, a completely circular worthless argument: They would say that, wouldn't they!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:12 pm 
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torn wrote:
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HAh more!!


Eternity

(aeternum, originally aeviternum, aionion, aeon -- long).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm

The very word eternity is derived from aeon, aionion. Torn, just fess uo

As I said, a completely circular worthless argument: They would say that, wouldn't they!

The word eternal was derived from aeon.

But you will reject anything that disagrees with you because you are an obstinate heretic and don't care about Truth

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:18 pm 
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First; all the ancient manuscripts of the Bible going back in fragments as far back as the second century, all the ancient manuscripts of the Bible agree that Christ used the self-same words to declare the eternity of both heaven and hell. In the original Greek He said, “Into everlasting punishment (Into everlasting punishment),” and He said, “Into everlasting or eternal life (Into everlasting or eternal life),” same word. Since there has never been any question about the eternity of heaven, no believer dare doubt that hell is also eternal. Second evidence, Christ equated the punishment of sinful human beings with the punishment of the devil and his angels. Since the endless duration of hell for the devils was and is certain so too should be the endless suffering of the lost men and women. Moreover, the Greek word, “aionion,” is consistently used in the Bible to mean unending duration. For example, God is said to be aionios, eternal, when Abraham invoked by name, “The Lord God Eternal.” If God is called eternal and it’s the same word for God as for hell, you follow the logic? God’s eternity is endless duration so too must be the eternity of man’s punishment. Isaiah foretells a song of victory that will be sung in the land of Juda to rest in the Lord forever for the Lord is an eternal rock. Same words. I won’t tell you how much time I’ve spent in going through ancient Greek Lexicons to nail down the word, “aionios.” As far back as I went in the Bible, and when I looked into the Greek classic writers, same thing. Aionios is referred to as eternal for God, for the Spirit of God. In other words, selectively under Divine Inspiration the sacred writers chose the one single word in the richest language of human history that’s Greek. When they had a word for it, that was the word for it. They had a word for eternal. It was referred to the eternity of God and the divine attributes, and the same word under the Holy Spirit is the word used to identify the duration of punishment. It is eternal. We know St. John affirms that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to recognize the One Who is True, and we are in the One Who is True for we are in His Son, Jesus Christ. He is the True God and Eternal Life. The same words used by John, used by all the evangelists, used by St. Paul. In other words, the most unmistakably, unquestionably, certain adjective is, under Divine Inspiration, to describe the duration of hell is - it is unending.

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives ... gy_002.htm

Fr. John Hardon. You can learn something from this Catholic priest torn.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:23 pm 
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W4f wrote:
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Oh okay. So, how do you correlate that thinking with what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Good question. I have no problem with any of it except the last few words: "...and only a few find it." I don't know the answer, but let me speculate. You have to note what tense Jesus is speaking in. Perhaps it means only a few find it at that particular time, in that particular age. It doesn't say only a few will ever find it. I really don't know what happens in the next life, maybe people will have further opportunity, for eternity.

There are other verses in the Bible which suggest that it won't be just a few who find "life". You probably know them better than I do. (I haven't time to find them right now.)

Anyway my argument in this thread is not that everyone will eventually be saved - I have said that I believe some people may possibly have their conscious existence obliterated. My argument is that an infinitely merciful God of unconditional love does not allow any human being He created to suffer eternal torture.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:45 pm 
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PED:

The same Greek word - "aionion" - is also used in Jude 1:7
Jude 1:7 Douay-Rheims Bible:
Quote:
As Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

But Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighbouring cities are not now burning! Those fires stopped burning a long time ago.

The Greek word "aionion" does not literally mean eternal, it literally means "lasting an age" - a finite period of time. It has been artificially translated as "eternal" (in some bibles, not all) but it does not literally mean "eternal". There is a Greek word which means "eternal" - "aiodios". (Paul uses the word "aiodios" in Romans 1:20 - "His eternal power also and divinity".) But "aiodios" is not the word used in Matthew 25:46, etc.

According to the Oxford English dictionary, the English word "eternal" is
Quote:
derived from the Latin aeternitas from aeternus 'without beginning or end'


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:05 pm 
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torn wrote:
W4f wrote:
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Oh okay. So, how do you correlate that thinking with what Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Good question. I have no problem with any of it except the last few words: "...and only a few find it." I don't know the answer, but let me speculate. You have to note what tense Jesus is speaking in. Perhaps it means only a few find it at that particular time, in that particular age. It doesn't say only a few will ever find it. I really don't know what happens in the next life, maybe people will have further opportunity, for eternity.


The Word (Scripture, Jesus) tell us everything we need to know for salvation. No where in it does it mention that we will have further opportunity to choose after we die. You are adding to Scripture something that isn't there. And, at the same time you aren't taking seriously what is there- that only a few find the road that leads to life.

Quote:
There are other verses in the Bible which suggest that it won't be just a few who find "life". You probably know them better than I do. (I haven't time to find them right now.)


No, there aren't. I would like to see them if there are. Now, I'm not Catholic anymore, but I do know that the early Church Fathers all believed the same thing that this verse says- that most of humanity will not see Heaven.

Quote:
Anyway my argument in this thread is not that everyone will eventually be saved - I have said that I believe some people may possibly have their conscious existence obliterated. My argument is that an infinitely merciful God of unconditional love does not allow any human being He created to suffer eternal torture.


I'm glad you're not arguing Universalism- that is one evil plague, taking away the necessity of faith in Jesus for salvation.

God had so much love for us that He gave us free will and a real choice in the Garden. If He did not met out His Justice for disobedience, He wouldn't be all He is. He sent His Son to take the punishment from us, for all who will but believe. Jesus called it a free gift- we can take this free living water to drink from. But, some choose not to drink from it, and they are not reborn, but remain dead spiritually. They will suffer the consequences we all deserve. It is God's love that saves us- and would save all if they would but believe. It's not His fault they are not saved. He offered the Way out.

Torn, if someone murdered your mother, what would you think of a Judge who did not send that person to prison, but let them run free in society unpunished, unrepentant, and worse of all, unchanged? You'd think he was the worst of Judges in the world, not that he was loving. Unless their nature has been changed/reborn, they are still the same creature that would commit more murders forever. God cannot allow that, and separates good from evil for eternity. When people become believers, they are reborn spiritually and He sanctifies them, makes them more and more like Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit that lives inside of them. That doesn't happen to unbelievers. They have to stay outside the gates of Heaven.

We are told in Scripture we are appointed to die once and then be judged. People have their whole lives to make their decision to believe in Jesus or not. After that, their fate is sealed. If they weren't reborn, they "die in their sins" as Jesus said, and will be judged accordingly.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:37 pm 
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torn wrote:
PED:

The same Greek word - "aionion" - is also used in Jude 1:7
Jude 1:7 Douay-Rheims Bible:
Quote:
As Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighbouring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

But Sodom and Gomorrha and the neighbouring cities are not now burning! Those fires stopped burning a long time ago.


IT CAN MEAN EITHER ETERNAL OR A LONG AGE

Words aren't always translated the same. The context helps

Hence I I wrote

"Odio mala" just by itself it can be translated "I have apples" or "I hate a wicked woman". Context would help, don't you think?!

Quote:
According to the Oxford English dictionary, the English word "eternal" is
Quote:
derived from the Latin aeternitas from aeternus 'without beginning or end'


Actually, aeternus is itself derive from aeternum, which was original aeviternum. This Latin word WAS DERIVED FROM THE GREEK AEON/AIONIN

Therefore your point is moot. Eternal is derived from the Greek aionin through Latin (just as when you look up wods derived from French they themselves are derived from Latin or a Gothic language)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:38 pm 
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Torn, you don't know Greek. Instead of acting like an expert, you should do the smart thing and realise that the experts say it can be translated wither way depending on the context, and submitting yourself to Holy Mother Church, realise that Hell is without end.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:59 pm 
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Would anyone be upset or disappointed if every person who ever lived, or ever will live, ended up with everyone else in an eternal heaven? Buddhists, Catholics, Nazis, Unitarians, athiests - all together in an eternal heaven. Everybody saved!

If you had the ability to choose this situation, if you were given the power to make this happen, would you?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:39 pm 
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Yoga wrote:

If you had the ability to choose this situation, if you were given the power to make this happen, would you?

No.

For the damned by being damned gived glory to God. Hence, why He permits them to sin, gives them free will to reject Him

As it is written: Jacob I have loved: but Esau I have hated.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid!

For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy.
...

Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will. And whom he will, he hardeneth.

O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?

Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction,

That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory?

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