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 Post subject: invincible ignorance and the popes or ECFs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:12 pm 
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Hello Everyone,

I'm still working on the "no salvation outside the church" idea. I'm looking for some quotes from the ECFs or popes before 1863 on invincible ignorance, and Pro Ecclesia pointed me to Augustine's 43rd Epistle, which was much help.

I'm wondering if any of you are familiar with other writings that support invincible ignorance?

God bless,

Liseux

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:17 pm 
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John 9:39 And Jesus said: For judgment I am come into this world; that they who see not, may see; and they who see, may become blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees, who were with him, heard: and they said unto him: Are we also blind?
41 Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth.

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 Post subject: Re: invincible ignorance and the popes or ECFs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:12 pm 
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liseux wrote:
Hello Everyone,

I'm still working on the "no salvation outside the church" idea. I'm looking for some quotes from the ECFs or popes before 1863 on invincible ignorance, and Pro Ecclesia pointed me to Augustine's 43rd Epistle, which was much help.

I'm wondering if any of you are familiar with other writings that support invincible ignorance?

God bless,

Liseux


Augustine was also pretty adamant that salvation outside the Church was impossible --invincible ignorance or no. So were all of the Fathers. Not just some of the Fathers. Not just most of the Fathers. All of the Fathers. The same is true for the Councils and the Popes. In fact, you cannot even find in the writings of V2, or in the writings of the recent Popes, the words "they are thus saved outside the Church" (or some reasonable facsimile thereof).

Augustine taught we were all of us damned, and that God raised some of us from that state into the state of being saved. Those whom God raised up were ipso facto members of the very visible holy Roman Catholic Church. Being invincibly ignorant is not a get out of jail free card. No one is saved because they are invincibly ignorant. No one is saved because they are a good person. We are saved by grace, and we receive grace mostly through the Sacraments, the sacramentals, and prayer. Yet, for those outside the Church, there is no salvific grace. No matter what works of Christian piety they may do, even if they shed their blood for Christ, they cannot be saved unless they are fully incorporated within the holy Roman Catholic Church, and faithfully persevere in the holy Catholic Faith.

You will not find any teaching different than that coming from the Fathers. You will find people who can proof-text the Fathers and maybe get something ambiguous which they can twist to mean something different. But, when read in context, and as an entire system of theology, the Fathers are quite adamant, and speak with one voice: Outside the Church there is no salvation.


Edit: I think this response belonged in your other thread, liseaux, but I guess it works just as well here.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:49 pm 
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What about the people who never heard of the Catholic Church. I know there aren't a lot in present times but in the past many people have died without ever having heard of the Church. Can they accept the Church in Purgetory?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:06 pm 
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havejoy wrote:
What about the people who never heard of the Catholic Church. I know there aren't a lot in present times but in the past many people have died without ever having heard of the Church. Can they accept the Church in Purgetory?


No. God saves whomever He will. If such people were saved, then God joined them to His Church. However, there are problems with thinking that people could be saved without the sacramental life of the Church. For instance: What recourse did they have to obtain the forgiveness of either actual or Original Sin?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:00 am 
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the Mercy of God :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:00 am 
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Then what you are saying contradicts with Lumen Gentium AND our current Catechism, Pax.

God bless,

Liseux

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:00 am 
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In addition to Lumen Gentium and the Cathechism, here are a few statements from the ECF that support invincible ignorance.

ECFs on invincible igorance

Justin Martyr

Quote:
"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).



Clement of Alexandria

Quote:
"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).



Origen

Quote:
"[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. Indeed, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]).


Quote:
"If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).


Augustine

Quote:
"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).


The normative means for salvation is to be Catholic (according to the Church's teaching). However, someone who wishes to submit to God but does not know (or is invincibly ignorant of the fact) that they need to submit to and join the Catholic Church may still be saved. (Note that I said may and not will.)

The link will take you to that Catholic Answers discussion on this topic. Please note that the page has the imprimatur of the Bishop of San Diego.[/i]

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:04 am 
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thanks for the link techie...i liked this quote a whole lot 8-)

Quote:
Fulgentius of Ruspe



"Anyone who receives the sacrament of baptism, whether in the Catholic Church or in a heretical or schismatic one, receives the whole sacrament; but salvation, which is the strength of the sacrament, he will not have, if he has had the sacrament outside the Catholic Church [and remains in deliberate schism]. He must therefore return to the Church, not so that he might receive again the sacrament of baptism, which no one dare repeat in any baptized person, but so that he may receive eternal life in Catholic society, for the obtaining of which no one is suited who, even with the sacrament of baptism, remains estranged from the Catholic Church" (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:30 am 
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liseux wrote:
Then what you are saying contradicts with Lumen Gentium AND our current Catechism, Pax.

God bless,

Liseux

Actually, no it does not.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:42 am 
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None can be saved outside of the Church.

All pax said was what the irreformable dogma says.

If anyone not visibly in the Church is saved it is in spite of invincible ignorance, not because of it. See, all invincible ignorance is is a MORAL doctrine about culpability in a particular act of sin. Somehow people have inflated it into something it is not

See for a mortal sin one must:

1. Do it willingly
2. It must be grave or believed to be so
3. One must know its gravity

If one is ignorant that it is a sin to not join the Church (and yes, just that is a sin. Baptism is a necessity of precept), then the question is whether that ignorance is culpable or no. It it is not, then the ignorance is termed invincible. But this merely excuses a particular sin. One has the problem of:

A. other mortal sins

B. Original Sin

Baptism is a necessity of means as well as precept. So, as Pius IX said, someone invincibly ignorant of it will not be punished on THAT account. But he certainly will go to hell if he die in original sin or mortal sin.

Baptism, whether it is done in a Presybetrian and a Catholic Church, brings one into the Catholic Church, unless they seperate themselves at the same time by joining an heretic or schismatic community. So certainly infants baptised in non-Catholic communities would be saved, because God has JOINED them to the Catholic Church

Now the question of adults in heretic or schismatic communities is a compounded one. They have sins with no confession, this makes it difficult. Nevertheless, if the sins of heresy and schism are non culpable for them on account of invincible ignorance, then God can keep them joined to the Catholic Church, under whose jurisdiction all baptised are brought. He can, and He alone (since without His grace we are damned) can grant them perfect charity and contrition for their sins before they die. In this way and only this way can they be saved, and it is not outside of membership with the Church, though this membership is acheived in votum.

How about the non baptised? They must receive the graces of baptism. Anyone, even in original sin only, will go to hell without this.

Besides baptism of water one has

Baptism of desire
Baptism of blood

The former is misleading. Baptism of desire is in truth composed of two elements, perfect charity and contrition (which one can have only by the free grace of God) and a desire (really vow, in votum. Not some vague wish) for baptism, coupledd with some amount of Faith (another grace. You cannot believe except the free and utter gratuitious grace of God)

The latter is martyrdom.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:51 am 
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Quote:
Justin Martyr

Quote:
"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).


If one reads too much into this quote, it will lead them to believe exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches.


Quote:
Clement of Alexandria

Quote:
"Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5 [A.D. 208]).


Note the qualification, "Before the coming of the Lord..". As the Church teaches, philosophy is impossible to justify men (philosophy didn't justify men in before either, but I understand what Clement is trying to say). The use of good reason has always been a prerequisite for coming to the faith, but again, you are reading to much into the text, there is nothing about salvation outside the Church.


Quote:
Origen

Quote:
"[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; he was always concerned about that. Indeed, he always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the wisdom of God descended into those souls which he found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Against Celsus 4:7 [A.D. 248]).


This does not say anything about ignorance saving anyone or that there is salvation outside the Church.

Quote:
"If someone from this people wants to be saved, let him come into this house so that he may be able to attain his salvation. . . . Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: Outside of this house, that is, outside of the Church, no one is saved; for, if anyone should go out of it, he is guilty of his own death" (Homilies on Joshua 3:5 [A.D. 250]).


Yes, this is true. But why is this posted? It says nothing about ignorance or salvation outside the Church.


Quote:
Augustine

Quote:
"The apostle Paul said, ‘As for a man that is a heretic, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him’ [Titus 3:10]. But those who maintain their own opinion, however false and perverted, without obstinate ill will, especially those who have not originated the error of bold presumption, but have received it from parents who had been led astray and had lapsed . . . those who seek the truth with careful industry and are ready to be corrected when they have found it, are not to be rated among heretics" (Letters 43:1 [A.D. 412]).


Have you ever met a heretic (protestant, etc.) who was not obstinate when confronted? Maybe its just the ones I've come into contact with, but they, without fail, are extraordinarily obstinate in their opinions. At any rate, is there any justification in the text to assume he is talking about anyone else other than misinformed Catholics?

Quote:
The normative means for salvation is to be Catholic (according to the Church's teaching). However, someone who wishes to submit to God but does not know (or is invincibly ignorant of the fact) that they need to submit to and join the Catholic Church may still be saved. (Note that I said may and not will.)


For someone who is absolutely and completely ignorant of their absolute duties in this life, the ignorance has taken the form of punishment. It is a contradiction in terms to say that someone has faith, while at the same not does not possess faith. Contraries cannot coexist in the same subject at the same time.

Quote:
The link will take you to that Catholic Answers discussion on this topic. Please note that the page has the imprimatur of the Bishop of San Diego.[/i]


Unfortunately, Imprimaturs are only as good as the guy behind the stamp these days.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
Note the qualification, "Before the coming of the Lord..". As the Church teaches, philosophy is impossible to justify men (philosophy didn't justify men in before either, but I understand what Clement is trying to say). The use of good reason has always been a prerequisite for coming to the faith, but again, you are reading to much into the text, there is nothing about salvation outside the Church.


I'm not disputing that "salvation outside the Church" is possible. The point is just what the phrase "no salvation outside the Church" means. I can't answer that question, but it's clear that some of the ECF believed that people who were ignorant of Christ prior to His coming could still be saved. I don't see any reason to believe that this changed once Christ came, died, and rose from the dead. However, I agree with Pro Ecclesia Dei that other factors are involved.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:43 pm 
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Technicoid wrote:
Matthew wrote:
Note the qualification, "Before the coming of the Lord..". As the Church teaches, philosophy is impossible to justify men (philosophy didn't justify men in before either, but I understand what Clement is trying to say). The use of good reason has always been a prerequisite for coming to the faith, but again, you are reading to much into the text, there is nothing about salvation outside the Church.


I'm not disputing that "salvation outside the Church" is possible. The point is just what the phrase "no salvation outside the Church" means. I can't answer that question, but it's clear that some of the ECF believed that people who were ignorant of Christ prior to His coming could still be saved. I don't see any reason to believe that this changed once Christ came, died, and rose from the dead. However, I agree with Pro Ecclesia Dei that other factors are involved.


Oh, one more thing.

I was multitasking when I submitted the original response, so Matthew was correct in questioning the applicability to invincible ignorance. It was intended to address the matter of "no salvation outside the Church." My bad.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 3:03 pm 
pax:
quote:
[for those outside the Church, there is no salvific grace. No matter what works of Christian piety they may do, even if they shed their blood for Christ, they cannot be saved unless they are fully incorporated within the holy Roman Catholic Church, and faithfully persevere in the holy Catholic Faith.]

This is untrue. I have heard our Lady revealed a message to some one in Majougory by saying that :[ the most holy person was a muslim woman, she was a humble soul and did all things under God's commandament through her heart. She is in heaven.]
She belive God but she is not christian. God receive her. She perhaps never had heard of Jesus.
In my opinion, we Catholic are so lucky to have mass to celebrate and gain so many gaces from Jesus. But in it we have more obligation to do God's will. Certainly God will lead us with His grace. For those outsiders who are easy to fall because of lacking of God's grace unless they fear of God and knowledge the exist of God.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:48 pm 
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phmary wrote:

This is untrue. I have heard our Lady revealed a message to some one in Majougory by saying that :[ the most holy person was a muslim woman, she was a humble soul and did all things under God's commandament through her heart. She is in heaven.]
She belive God but she is not christian. God receive her. She perhaps never had heard of Jesus.
In my opinion, we Catholic are so lucky to have mass to celebrate and gain so many gaces from Jesus. But in it we have more obligation to do God's will. Certainly God will lead us with His grace. For those outsiders who are easy to fall because of lacking of God's grace unless they fear of God and knowledge the exist of God.


Running this through my translator

Quote:
This is untrue. I have heard Our Lady revealed a message to someone in Medjugorje by saying that: "the most holy person was a Muslim woman, she was a humble soul and did all things under God's commandment through her heart. She is in heave."

She believed God but she was not Christian. God received her. She perhaps never heard of Jesus

In my opinion, we Catholics are so lucky to have Mass to celebrate and gain so many graces from Jesus. But with this we have more obligation to do God's will. Certainly God will lead us with His grace. Those outsiders will fall easily because of their lacking of God's grace unless they fear of God and aknowledge the exist of God.


You can inform me if I interpreted your garbled English correctly

What you said is blatantly unCatholic and heretical.

1. You cannot cite private revelation to show doctrine. Public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. Medjugorje was condemned by its local bishop as false. It is now under dispute. If the visionaries truly claim Mary said the message you claim she did, then this would prove the apparitions false.

2. The reason your paragraph is heretical is because it goes against several DOGMAS

First!

Our Lady, not some Moslem infidel, was the most Holy creature

Second!

We cannot save ourselves. You believe. Even the devils believe says St. James. It is Catholic dogma that any merit is from Christ and that only by God's free and unmerited grace can we be saved. We are born in a state of sin. Without baptismal waters to wash away original sin, we go to Hell. Only God's grace will save those who are saved. Only by His grace can anyone do His will, have Faith in Him and be cleansed of sins.

Your paragraph is semi-Pelagian. IOW it states the HERESY that grace is only a supernatural aid towards salvation, that we can ourselves merit salvation. But this is a lie of Satan inflating our wills. It is God's grace that we come to any belief in Him, that we do anything on the path to salvation

Third!

It denies the dogma that outside the Church there is no salvation

[The Holy Catholic Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.

Ecumenical Council of Florence



As St. Pius X declared

It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:56 pm 
pro-:
you are such ego person I have ever known.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:53 pm 
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phmary wrote:
pro-:
you are such ego person I have ever known.


ego person?!

I am sorry, what the heck is that supposed to mean? A typo or two is expected, is human. But please write English. I do not mean to be rude, but when you write below 3rd grade level, I worry.

Ego means I. I am an "I person"... hmmm

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:31 pm 
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phmary wrote:
pax wrote:
For those outside the Church, there is no salvific grace.


This is untrue. I have heard our Lady revealed a message to some one in Majougory by saying that "the most holy person was a muslim woman, she was a humble soul and did all things under God's commandament through her heart. She is in heaven."


More proof Medjugorja is a bogus apparition.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:02 pm 
pro-:
I addmit i had typo sometimes and I didn't check, that was not what I concluded you are a ego person. I can see you are the type of person who can't take other people's idea which disagrees with yours. That also was called "shallow mind".

I still firmly believe that you are wrong on this one :
quote:

[all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; ]


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