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 Post subject: Hell as eternal question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:46 am 
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As I'm new here, I apologize if this is rehashing old stuff.

Do you feel that hell is truly eternal or simply a punishment to the wicked who are then annihilated?

I know of no official doctrine on the matter. It just seems difficult that someone could do enough evil in 70 or so years of life that would merit never-ending punishment. This would cut against God as being perfectly just.

Any thoughts?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:51 am 
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 Post subject: Eternal hell
PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:17 am 
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This is a good question.

Personally I cannot tell you if Hell is all burning pain in lakes of fire. I honestly do not know what hell will be like.

What I can tell you is that Hell is eternal. It is an eternity apart from God. Whether that involves painful burning or not I cannot say.

All I can say is that humans are eternal beings. Those who accept Jesus as Lord will spend eternity with God. Those who choose to turn their backs on God will spend eternity apart from him.

To me, an eternity apart from God would be hell.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:36 am 
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Hell is really eternal like Heaven. It was set up for bad angels like Satan (formerly Lucifer).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:55 am 
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Hell is eternal and souls are not annihilated. CCC 1035; cf. Ott 481.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:09 am 
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Hell is most definately eternal, and Hell is filled with fire. Remember Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane takes on the wrath of His Father. Jesus came to save us from Hell and its punishments. If Hell were only an eternal seperation from God which is painful than there would be no point of Jesus going through pain in the Garden because Jesus felt abandonment on the Cross. Jesus also went through cruel pains to save us, why would He save us through all these cruel pains if saving us from a Hell that only had seperation from God. Basically that would mean Jesus would just needed to sit there and have His Father abandon the Son until the Son died. Jesus makes references that Hell is Hades. Hell has eternal fire, but the fire is different than a fire on a stove because the fire is of God's Wrath. You don't wanna face that. Heaven is eternity with God so Hell is eternity without God. Soul are not annihilated because God made us in His image and likeness. Our souls are immortal and contain the Holy Spirit's breath of life. If God decided to annihilate our souls than He would contradict His Word, contradict His making of our Immortal Nature and since our souls are a piece of God Himself, He would then be destroying a part of His own body.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:37 pm 
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What happens to those in Hell when the New Kingdom comes? Isnt it annihilated?


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:47 pm 
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thecullscm wrote:
What happens to those in Hell when the New Kingdom comes? Isnt it annihilated?


No... God is not an uncreator. It would actually go against the just nature of God in 2 ways...

1. God created humans to share in eternity. This is part of human nature, and he would have to destroy that or "uncreate" to accomplish what you suggest.

2. If Hell is not eternal, then we really do not have an opposite choice to satisfy our free will. In order for me to actually choose heaven freely, I need an equal and opposite alternative since I have a fallen nature. Until I am fully sanctified an safe in the arms of God, then Hell is necessary for a free will choice.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:58 pm 
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1 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss 2 and a heavy chain.
2
He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, 3 and tied it up for a thousand years
3
and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the thousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

If you take revelation literally, the devil will be confined to hell for 1000 years and then released for a time. While I have never totally understood this from a literal perspective it is at least an indicator that hell does exist.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:22 pm 
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I think that it means Satan will have a small power over the earth and then after being released from his chains will come out for a short time before the Second Coming to attack us all. I don't think it literally means Satan will be locked into Hell, I think it is more symbolic that his power will be restrained until he is given 100% free will over earth. I know that after the Second Coming, Satan is most definately going to Hell forever and he is gonna suffer more than anyone else in Hell for eternity. Praise God for that because Satan pisses me off a lot.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:41 pm 
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thecullscm wrote:
What happens to those in Hell when the New Kingdom comes? Isnt it annihilated?


After Jesus' 2nd coming, then Jesus' 1,000 year reign on earth (that is the 1,000 years Satan is locked in the Abyss, mmcgough), at the end of that Satan is released to once again deceive the nations and gather them for battle. Then, starting at Rev. 20:9-

"They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves (Jerusalem). But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown (at Jesus' 2nd Coming). They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, people that died before this judgement occurs, come from Hell (Hades), etc, to stand before the throne. If their name is not in the Book of Life, they get thrown into the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever and forever.

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Last edited by walking4faith on Wed May 04, 2005 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hell as eternal question
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:43 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
As I'm new here, I apologize if this is rehashing old stuff.

Do you feel that hell is truly eternal or simply a punishment to the wicked who are then annihilated?

I know of no official doctrine on the matter. It just seems difficult that someone could do enough evil in 70 or so years of life that would merit never-ending punishment. This would cut against God as being perfectly just.

Any thoughts?


do enough evil in 70 or so years?

heck... all you have to do is be knowingly in a state of mortal sin, refuse to go to confession, and then present yourself for, receive, and consume the Eucharist at Mass.

that one time event is enough.

by the way.... God is eternally just. If He sends someone to Hell, then there's pretty good reason for it. That's someone receiving just punishment.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:50 pm 
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Hell is not based upon punishment according to what you do and how much time it took to do it because then that means all people in Hell including Satan should only have to go to Hell for a certain time to pay punishment then go to Heaven. Also why would God annihilate you after suffering the certain amount of time needed to be in pain. Hell is not about Prison or facing the sentence. Annihilation doesn't fit the crime either. First of all, you go to Hell because you kill your soul, just like if you kill yourself, your body is dead and will not come back. Does it seem logical that you should die forever in body for killing yourself? Yes, but does it mean that you should come back to life after the amount of time it took to kill yourself. So if I shoot myself in the head and die, then I should basically face Hell for a second and come back to life because I'm facing my crime. If you kill your body, it is dead, it doesn't just come back after facing your crimes. If you commit horrid sins, you kill your soul, and it doesn't get salvation after facing its crimes, its dead, but since it is Immortal then it faces Eternal Damnation. Basically you could then say, we should only be in Heaven for the amount of time we were good on earth. Heaven and Hell is not about facing crimes or being rewarded for being good, its about accepting or denying salvation and allowing God to bring your soul to true life with Him. If you follow God then He will bring your soul to Him so you can live for eternity, if you don't follow God then you kill your soul and die for eternity without Him. First of all when you commit a Mortal Sin, you commit an infinite sin against God, so Eternity in Hell is Justified in God's actions since you have to pay eternity for an eternal sin. If you commit a Mortal Sin which we all have at one time, we too have commited an eternal sin against God however God in His infinite mercy forgives the sin, but if you don't accept His mercy then your eternal sin is still held against you and you will suffer for eternity for it. Hell has nothing to do with your personal ideas of a sin being of the moment. I could commit a sin when I'm two and unless I ask God to forgive me then I'm still held accountable all this time, not just at that moment when I was two.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:33 pm 
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from the ewtn website

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Scripture often speaks of fire in hell. On May 17, 1979, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith explained: "She [the Church] believes that there will be eternal punishment for the sinner, who will be deprived of the sight of God, and that this punishment will have a repercussion on the whole being of the sinner." There will be, then a bodily pain. The imagery of fire means it will be a suffering as intense as that caused by earthly fire.

Of course, those who have sinned more will suffer more. But for all, there is no end to suffering and despair.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:36 pm 
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also from ewtn...sorry w4f...no 1000 year reign

Quote:
The Church knows by divine revelation that certain things will happen related to End Times, but at the same time the Church is careful not to overstep what has been revealed and can be known with certitude. Unfortunately, many non-Catholic preachers are utterly convinced that they can read the signs of the times and preach and teach and write with a certitude that goes beyond what we can know by the divine revelation. When it comes to such a matter, better to take a cautious approach rather than rise the possibility of misleading the Faithful with an unfounded certitude. Certainly the Catholic Church continually urges us to repentance and to strive to live the perfect Christian life, so that whenever the end does come--whether our personal end by death or the end of all--we are prepared to meet Christ in that instant. But beyond that and matters of the Faith about which we can have certitude, such as the fact that Christ will return and that there will be an end and judgment and heaven and hell, do not expect the Catholic Church to teach definitively about Soviet tanks and credit cards and particular anti-Christ candidates. Let me briefly comment on some general expectations vis-à-vis the End and post a few notes from the Catechism.

When the Lord returns we expect that this will be the definitive end of this world as we know it. We do not subscribe to a "rapture" in which faithful Christians are taken from a world which continues on; neither we do interpret any literal physical thousand year reign by Christ in this natural world. This world will pass and give way to the fullness of the Kingdom of God wherein will be those who are saved, perfectly happy for all eternity. The alternative for those who are not saved is damnation for all eternity, out of the presence of God and the communion of saints and angels. When the Lord comes, each will be judged upon his or her state at that moment and many will likely be caught off guard, which also happens for many who die suddenly and unexpectedly. Here is what the Catechism teaches about some matters related to the end:

see CCC 668-676


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:03 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
also from ewtn...sorry w4f...no 1000 year reign


so you take ewtn over Irenaeus and Hippolytus?

Quote:
Irenaeus, for example, a disciple of Polycarp the martyr, who in turn was instructed by the Apostles and had familiar communications with many who had seen the risen Christ, wrote of a literal millennial period. In book five of Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies) Irenaeus provides an apologetic (defense) for the millennium and the future restoration of Israel which he insists may not be allegorised away (35:1-35). After the millennium, Irenaeus foresees God's final judgment and retribution in terms of chapters 20 and 21 of the Book of Revelation.

Hippolytus, the Greek speaking bishop of a Church in Rome, who died as a martyr around 235 is well known for his eschatological writings. In De Christo et Antichristo (The Christ and Antichrist) Hippolytus writes of the Antichrist and the Tribulation period. In his Commentary on Daniel, the oldest extant scriptural commentary available today, Hippolytus details his millennial hope and the relationship of Revelation to Daniel, with their apocalyptic descriptions of the end times. It is important to realise that the common criticism of pre-millennial thought as a recent invention is simply untrue - rather it is the oldest of all Christian eschatological belief.

The essential reasons for holding to a literal millennium is that it represents the faith of the early Church, the teaching handed down by the Apostles, and that it provides an understanding of Revelation 20 which is harmonious with other Biblical passages, and which is obtained from a consistent and literal rendering of the Scriptures. Those who choose to deny a literal millennium must provide strong reasoning for their decision. It is not a belief which can be derived from Scripture, but rather one which must be learned outside of it.


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5951/mill.html

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:25 pm 
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indeed i do, since what ewtn has put forth is what the Church believes... many early Church Fathers held somewhat circumspect views on some things... some even believed Mary was not immaculately conceived ... or perpetual virgin... doesn't mean what they believe was true... just means it was what they believed

sorry darlin...just like the rapture ... ain't gonna happen

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:56 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
indeed i do, since what ewtn has put forth is what the Church believes... many early Church Fathers held somewhat circumspect views on some things... some even believed Mary was not immaculately conceived ... or perpetual virgin... doesn't mean what they believe was true... just means it was what they believed

sorry darlin...just like the rapture ... ain't gonna happen


This is one of those questions that the Church has not really made a ruling on. Had it of done so in 325 at the Councel of Nicea, most the 300 Bishops then would have supported the 1,000 year reign. The Church has shifted to St. Augustines view. That is where EWTN is coming from. Strangely, W4F and faithful can recognize each position, though, today, most will side with EWTN.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 11:59 pm 
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faithfulservant wrote:
indeed i do, since what ewtn has put forth is what the Church believes... many early Church Fathers held somewhat circumspect views on some things... some even believed Mary was not immaculately conceived ... or perpetual virgin... doesn't mean what they believe was true... just means it was what they believed

sorry darlin...just like the rapture ... ain't gonna happen


It's not dogmatic about it. I think Catholics are weary about it because of the wierd teachings of the JW's.

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:01 am 
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faithfulservant wrote:

sorry darlin...just like the rapture ... ain't gonna happen


Oh, we will see! We will see... :cloud9:


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