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 Post subject: Can the Catechism be changed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:09 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Does all of the Catechism fall under infallibility, or are some part dogma, and other parts not?


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 Post subject: Re: Can the Catechism be changed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:47 am 
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mkupka wrote:
Does all of the Catechism fall under infallibility, or are some part dogma, and other parts not?

The later.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:40 pm 
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The CCC is infallible where, and only where, it describes Catholic dogma.

In much the same way as if I sent you a letter stating " God is Triune, Father Son and Holy Spirit"

The teaching I sent was infallible, but my letter was not.

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 Post subject: Re: Can the Catechism be changed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:17 pm 
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Of course it can be changed, but it will tell us the same thing in different wording.

Kotton 8-)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:54 pm 
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Brendan wrote:
The CCC is infallible where, and only where, it describes Catholic dogma.

In much the same way as if I sent you a letter stating " God is Triune, Father Son and Holy Spirit"

The teaching I sent was infallible, but my letter was not.


Brendan,

I think I understand what you are saying but let me ask my question in a different way.

I understand that "Body and Blood" is dogma. The Trinity is dogma, Virgin birth is dogma, etc...

If I understand the other part correctly, you are saying that the lessons taught are always true and cannot be changed even though the actual wording may change.

Are the teachings on Birth Control, Abortion, Death Penalty dogmatic? I understand male only priesthood is dogma and cannot be changed, but married priests is not dogma. How can I tell the difference when reading the Catechism?

Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:10 pm 
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The CCC can certainly be changed, as the Church's understanding develops. In fact, between the 1st and 2nd editions of the CCC the section on the death penalty was reworked a bit, as this is a developing part of Chruch teaching. When reading the CCC, how can you tell what is dogmatic and what is not? It is sometimes difficultto tell what is dogmatic and what is not. But you should pay attention to whether the topic is central to the faith or not (e.g. Eucharist is more important than death penalty); the ancient origin and constant proclaimation of the teaching, the reference (often in the footnotes) to Conciliar or papal definitions, and the use of words like "has always believed."


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:24 am 
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OK, that adds more clarification. Has the Birth Control issue been stated as Dogma, or is it still doctrine? I understand divorce to be dogmatic.
Is there a publication that states all Dogma?

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:21 pm 
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mkupka wrote:
Has the Birth Control issue been stated as Dogma, or is it still doctrine? Thanks


I would say it is stated as Dogma. Dogma includes faith and morals. The Catholic Church will not change its position on birth control. Pope Paul VI stood firm when he wrote the letter Humanae Vitae even though liberal theologians thought otherwise.

Dogma is referenced in paragraph 88 in the Cathecism of the Catholic Church, by the way. I am using the German version of the Catechism.

There is an encyclical HUMANAE VITAE online.

HUMANAE VITAE

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ABORTUS NECNON INFANTICIDIUM NEFANDA SUNT CRIMINA.

Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes. (Gaudium et Spes, 51)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 4:28 pm 
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Actually, the words "dogma" and "doctrine" are somewhat confusing, since not everyone uses them in the same way. But if we mean by 'dogma' the things that are at the core of the faith, and 'doctrine' the things that are taught and should be accepted, then most applications of moral law would be doctrine, while the underlying principles might be dogma.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:39 pm 
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OK, I understand and accept the Church's postions whether dogma or doctrine on Abortion, Birth Control, etc, but what I am trying to understand is how do we know what is changeable and what is not. I asked a visiting priest about this and he said it is not so easy to know by simply reading the Catechism. Case in point is allowing priests to marry. I understand that this is changeable, and also understood that the issue of female priests is not changeable, but he said that was not so and the at some point the Church could decide to permit female priests.

I'm sorry for seeming a little dense here, but I'm a little confused about all of this.

Are Encyclicals binding upon the faithful??

Thanks


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:34 am 
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mkupka wrote:
I'm sorry for seeming a little dense here, but I'm a little confused about all of this.

It can get very confusing.

The Holy Spirit could have made it easy on us, for example, by putting a table of contents to Holy Scripture right in Matthew 1:1 or Genesis 1:1, or by giving us an infallible list of infallible statements, but for whatever reason He didn't. I think maybe it is because the Church learns more about faith and God by having to think about these things ourselves.

mkupka wrote:
Are Encyclicals binding upon the faithful??

Are they binding, yes. Are they infallible acts of teaching, generally not. Do they contain infallible teaching, quite often.


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