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 Post subject: Do you agree?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:04 pm 
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Any thoughts on these comments from http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htm and http://www.justforcatholics.org/a135.htm ? I'm trying to figure out what most Catholics (not just Catholic leaders) believe about these things...

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Question Do Catholics believe that people of other religions, such as Muslims, will go to heaven?

Answer Previously Rome taught that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and therefore Muslims would not be saved. Recently they changed their mind and the Catholic authorities assure Muslims (and members of other religions) that they will be saved if they follow their religion conscientiously. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium).... Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: “We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection” (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm).

...How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false.

...From the Christian perspective, we ought to take seriously the commission that our Lord entrusted to the church: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:15,16).

...The Christian response to the Muslims is twofold. Firstly, we must separate ourselves from Islam and clearly state that it is a false religion. “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds” (2 John 9-11). Christians do not have any ecumenical relationship with Muslims. We cannot participate in their idolatry by saying that we worship the same God. On the contrary, we must warn them that since they do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, they do not have God.

Secondly, we have an evangelistic responsibility towards Muslims. They have been indoctrinated against the Son of God. We must proclaim Him as the Son of God, the Lord from Heaven, the Saviour of the World. We must proclaim that He died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. This is our message to Muslims, and to the rest of the world, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (John 3:36).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:11 pm 
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Everyone on earth must convert to the true faith, which is the Catholic Church. Anyone who claims otherwise is heretical. God's plan of salvation includes muslims in the sense that they are called to convert to the Church....just like everyone else. We most certainly have an obligation to evangelize everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you agree?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:29 pm 
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Quote:
Answer Previously Rome taught that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and therefore Muslims would not be saved. Recently they changed their mind and the Catholic authorities assure Muslims (and members of other religions) that they will be saved if they follow their religion conscientiously. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium).... Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: “We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection” (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm).


That sounds suspiciously like a misunderstanding on the part of the one who wrote it.

It would contradict dogma and doctrine both to say that those who follow their religion conscientiously will be saved, unless they have just not heard of Christ.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you agree?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:43 pm 
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I'll take this on.

Quote:
Answer Previously Rome taught that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church and therefore Muslims would not be saved. Recently they changed their mind and the Catholic authorities assure Muslims (and members of other religions) that they will be saved if they follow their religion conscientiously.
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium).... Pope John Paul II repeats this statement even more clearly. Addressing Muslim youths, the Pope said: “We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection” (What Dialogue Means for Catholics and Muslims, US Conference of Catholic Bishops, http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm).


OK, what we have here is an anti-catholic INTERPRETING the CCC which is not the same as the CCC.

Nowhere in that text does it say "Muslims go to heaven" it says that God's plan of salvation includes them, yes, but that doesn't mean they'll go to heaven.

In fact, God's plan of salvation includes EVERYONE but nowhere does the CCC say that Muslims or everyone will be saved.

I challenge them to find me a CCC Citation that says exactly: MUSLIMS WILL BE SAVED, or EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED.

You won't find it. We don't believe that.

Quote:
...How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false.


Muslims worship who they believe to be God the Father. However, their theology is messed up big time as you noticed, but they intend to worship the same God as Abraham did - YHWH, who they call Allah (Arabic for "God")

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...The Christian response to the Muslims is twofold. Firstly, we must separate ourselves from Islam and clearly state that it is a false religion.


Where does it say in the CCC we are the same religion as Islam?

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 Post subject: Re: Do you agree?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:56 am 
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BobCatholic wrote:
I'll take this on.
OK, what we have here is an anti-catholic INTERPRETING the CCC which is not the same as the CCC.

Nowhere in that text does it say "Muslims go to heaven" it says that God's plan of salvation includes them, yes, but that doesn't mean they'll go to heaven.

In fact, God's plan of salvation includes EVERYONE but nowhere does the CCC say that Muslims or everyone will be saved.

I challenge them to find me a CCC Citation that says exactly: MUSLIMS WILL BE SAVED, or EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED.

You won't find it. We don't believe that.


Cool. I figured it had to be something like that. That is why I wanted to check with an actual Catholic instead of just reading this guy's take on Catholic doctrine. Thanks! I have one more question below though...
BobCatholic wrote:

Quote:
...How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false.


Muslims worship who they believe to be God the Father. However, their theology is messed up big time as you noticed, but they intend to worship the same God as Abraham did - YHWH, who they call Allah (Arabic for "God")


I've heard other Catholics explain the quote from the Second Vatican ("The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day,") by noting it only says Muslims "profess" to hold the faith of Abraham, it doesn't actually say the *do* hold the same faith as Abraham. This seems to be what you're saying also... that Muslims believe the worship the same God as us Christians, but they don't actually.

My question is how then Pope John Paul II, while addressing Muslim youth, said: “We believe in the same God, the one and only God, the living God, the God who creates worlds and brings creatures to their perfection," (reference in my original post/question)?

Here I'm not asking if Muslims are saved according to the RCC... you took care of that question for me above. Now I'm wondering if Catholics must hold that Muslims worship the same God we Christians do. As a Bible-only Christian I would say it is pretty obvious they worship a different God. If we only disagreed on the commandments God has given us then I'd think it possible that we actually worship the same God but we just disagree with them on what God has said because one of us didn't "hear" him correctly. But they even deny the Trinity and diety of Christ, the very essenence of *who* God is. I don't see how I could then say they worship the same God as I do.

So, do you believe Muslims worship the same God as yourself? And if not, how do you reconcile the Pope's comments with your own beliefs?

By the way, I'm not trying to pick on your faith, I just want to be sure I've asked actual Catholics about these things before I make my own judgements from reading the above links.

thanks again,


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:33 am 
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bonaventure wrote:
Everyone on earth must convert to the true faith, which is the Catholic Church. Anyone who claims otherwise is heretical. God's plan of salvation includes muslims in the sense that they are called to convert to the Church....just like everyone else. We most certainly have an obligation to evangelize everyone.


That makes sense, as BobCatholic explained below. Thanks for the explaination everyone.

I'm still left thinking that it seems misleading to tell a Muslim (whom you believe will never be saved from eternal damnation if he remains a Muslim), "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day," or, "... we believe in the same God."

I personally could never say such a thing to a Muslim and not feel terribly guilty. I would never want to say anything to a lost person that might lead them to think they are saved, you know? If a Muslim asks me about God's salvation I'd say it is available to all who profess Christ as Lord God, and walk in the faith that he was sinless, born of a virgin, died for our sins, and was resurrected so we could have eternal life. Period. I would explain why Christ's death was so important, and how faith in Him changes a person. I could never feel right telling them that they "believe in the same God I do, and are in His plan of salvation" and then just leave it at that. That would be almost intentionally misleading, I would think. Its like saying, "You're included in God's plan for salvation... but you're lost unless you believe in Christ as Lord," and leaving out the part after "but...".

Any thoughts?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:00 am 
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jay wrote:
Its like saying, "You're included in God's plan for salvation... but you're lost unless you believe in Christ as Lord," and leaving out the part after "but...".

Any thoughts?


I'd say, yes, God has a plan of salvation for you....and it includes acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Son of God and converting to His One True, Holy and Apostolic Church.

I think my conscience would be ok with that one.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:24 pm 
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Max Majestic wrote:
jay wrote:
Its like saying, "You're included in God's plan for salvation... but you're lost unless you believe in Christ as Lord," and leaving out the part after "but...".

Any thoughts?


I'd say, yes, God has a plan of salvation for you....and it includes acknowledging Jesus Christ as the Son of God and converting to His One True, Holy and Apostolic Church.

I think my conscience would be ok with that one.


And I could see why you would want to be as forthright as that with a Muslim person to keep your conscience clear. It would seem misleading to say, "You're included in God's plan of salvation!" and then just leave it at that. It wouldn't be kind to hide an "... and" as big as that. It would be to that person's detriment for you to not qualify your statement.

I suppose I'm just wondering why the Roman Catholic document or the Pope's address to Muslim youths I cited instead remains vague. Seems like a crying shame to me to almost hide such an important qualification from such lost people.

Nevermind the fact that I would qualify it by pointing to Christ as the One who saves and not the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Catholic or any Church where His followers gather. I just simply think some sort of qualification would be the only way to not mislead Muslims with such a statement.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:41 pm 
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jay wrote:

I suppose I'm just wondering why the Roman Catholic document or the Pope's address to Muslim youths I cited instead remains vague. Seems like a crying shame to me to almost hide such an important qualification from such lost people.


If a muslim read the entire CCC....not just that part....then he'd have no illusions about what's required for salvation. The problem is people taking one part of the writing out of context.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:35 pm 
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Max Majestic wrote:
jay wrote:

I suppose I'm just wondering why the Roman Catholic document or the Pope's address to Muslim youths I cited instead remains vague. Seems like a crying shame to me to almost hide such an important qualification from such lost people.


If a muslim read the entire CCC....not just that part....then he'd have no illusions about what's required for salvation. The problem is people taking one part of the writing out of context.


Cool. That makes sense. I personally would just want to qualify such a statement to Muslims the in the same breath... not in a different chapter. It just seems rather important to me. Muslims that haven't heard the gospel are a a different story. But for the ones that I actually have the opportunity to discuss salvation with I would hope I would be so clear that they aren't left wondering if they're in already or need to jump on the Jesus train.

Thanks,


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:43 pm 
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jay wrote:
Max Majestic wrote:
jay wrote:

I suppose I'm just wondering why the Roman Catholic document or the Pope's address to Muslim youths I cited instead remains vague. Seems like a crying shame to me to almost hide such an important qualification from such lost people.


If a muslim read the entire CCC....not just that part....then he'd have no illusions about what's required for salvation. The problem is people taking one part of the writing out of context.


Cool. That makes sense. I personally would just want to qualify such a statement to Muslims the in the same breath... not in a different chapter. It just seems rather important to me. Muslims that haven't heard the gospel are a a different story. But for the ones that I actually have the opportunity to discuss salvation with I would hope I would be so clear that they aren't left wondering if they're in already or need to jump on the Jesus train.

Thanks,

It's in the same chapter. The paragraph on Muslims is CC 841 and the qulification is 845, after it finishes discussing all various and sundry religions/non-religions. It's all in one complete thought, but to put it all in one paragraph would be overwhelming.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:43 pm 
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Mamamidwife wrote:
It's in the same chapter. The paragraph on Muslims is CC 841 and the qulification is 845, after it finishes discussing all various and sundry religions/non-religions. It's all in one complete thought, but to put it all in one paragraph would be overwhelming.


I'm not sure 845 clarifies it all that much. If I've been told I'm already included in the plan of salvation, I'm not sure the clarification "God wants and calls everyone in his church" is going to convince me to give up my traditional and cultural heritage... after all, I'm already in the plan of salvation so obviously God doesn't care that much.

I would want to be told that if I've heard the gospel of Christ I need to believe on him to be saved; all who don't believe are condemned. (Mark 16:16). That, after all, is the truth. I would hope that is what I would be told if I were lost.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:06 pm 
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Maybe. I do agree that this area has been left pretty vague lately, and I hope that the new papacy will reiterate the constant teaching of the Church on this regard. I've very little contact with Muslims, so I usually try to stay out of these threads. ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:10 pm 
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How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false.


I would also like to point out that no one has ever denied that we worship the same God as the Jews.

The Jews also deny there is a Trinity, but that, like the Muslims, shows fault with their perception of God, not in God Himself.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:41 pm 
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Brendan wrote:
Quote:
How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false.


I would also like to point out that no one has ever denied that we worship the same God as the Jews.

The Jews also deny there is a Trinity, but that, like the Muslims, shows fault with their perception of God, not in God Himself.



Well said, Brendan.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you agree?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:37 pm 
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jay wrote:
So, do you believe Muslims worship the same God as yourself?


They profess to worship the same God as Abraham worshipped, the same God that Moses worshipped. They call him Allah which is Arabic for "God" From my understanding of the Muslim faith, Islam is like Judaism + Jesus as prophet + some pagan stuff.

Do Jews worship God? I would say Yes. They worship God the Father.
Do Muslims worhip God? I would say yes. They also worship God the Father.

NOW, I don't say Judaism is the correct faith, or the fullness of God's revelation. I don't say the same about Islam.

God has revealed Jesus as Christ, God and Lord. God has revealed Himself as the Trinity. Since Islam and Judaism denies Christ and the Trinity, in a sense, one could argue that they don't worship the same God as we do, but I wouldn't say that - I would say they don't know everything about God as we do. They have an incomplete vision of God.

Trinitarian Christians like Catholics understand God as He really is - One God, one being with three persons.

Have you heard of the story of the three blind men and the elephant? I see them as the blind men.

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 Post subject: Re: Do you agree?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:57 am 
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BobCatholic wrote:
jay wrote:
So, do you believe Muslims worship the same God as yourself?


They profess to worship the same God as Abraham worshipped, the same God that Moses worshipped. They call him Allah which is Arabic for "God" From my understanding of the Muslim faith, Islam is like Judaism + Jesus as prophet + some pagan stuff.

Do Jews worship God? I would say Yes. They worship God the Father.
Do Muslims worhip God? I would say yes. They also worship God the Father.

NOW, I don't say Judaism is the correct faith, or the fullness of God's revelation. I don't say the same about Islam.

God has revealed Jesus as Christ, God and Lord. God has revealed Himself as the Trinity. Since Islam and Judaism denies Christ and the Trinity, in a sense, one could argue that they don't worship the same God as we do, but I wouldn't say that - I would say they don't know everything about God as we do. They have an incomplete vision of God.

Trinitarian Christians like Catholics understand God as He really is - One God, one being with three persons.

Have you heard of the story of the three blind men and the elephant? I see them as the blind men.


Thanks for sharing that. I googled and read that story. I'd never read it before, and I like it. Nonetheless, I can't see how this relates to the story of the blind men. They are arguing about the elephant's attributes, ie what it is like. But in the case of the Muslims, it is an argument about *who* the elephant is... not what the elephant is like.

They deny Christ is God; they deny who he even is. What they call God is not. You can call it an 'incomplete vision' of God, but it is much more then that. To say they "almost" know God but are just lacking a few attributes is an enormous understatement. It takes away from the seriousness of the error of refusing the diety of Christ. God is Christ, Christ is God... to deny that is to deny who God is, not just one of his attributes. Christ is not just an attribute, he is the person of God in bodily form.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:19 am 
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Brendan wrote:
Quote:
How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false.


I would also like to point out that no one has ever denied that we worship the same God as the Jews.

The Jews also deny there is a Trinity, but that, like the Muslims, shows fault with their perception of God, not in God Himself.


I would most certainly say Jews do not worship the true God. Christ is God in person, and to deny that is to deny who God is. They do not know who God is, they do not know God. They once did, but God sent Christ as a 'stumbling stone' Paul says. He no longer knows them, they no longer know Him.

As I mentioned to BobCatholic in the post just above this one, Christ is not just a 'perception of God'. Christ *is* God. Christ is the person of God in bodily form. To deny Christ is not to just deny a perception or 'angle' or attribute of God. To deny Christ is to deny who God is. The Jews most certainly do not know who God is.


Last edited by jay on Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:37 am 
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john 14:6-7

6) Jesus answered, " I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

7) If you really knew me, you would know the Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

ONLY ONE WAY---WITH JESUS AS GOD- if one "perceives" God without the DEITY OF THE SON---they are NOT ON THE WAY....

doesnt say anything about belonging to an entity or group----the thief on the cross didnt belong to any group or entity----neither do hundreds of millions of christians...

but they do belong to CHRIST as HIS BRIDE.

any church doctrine or any individual who says an opposition to GODS WORD is heretical----misperceving God LEADS TO HELL.

black and white---nice and easy----no additions, no strings.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:45 am 
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Brendan wrote:
Quote:
How could Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, since Muslims deny the Trinity, the Sonship and the Deity of our Lord? Quite frankly, the statement that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God is false.


I would also like to point out that no one has ever denied that we worship the same God as the Jews.

The Jews also deny there is a Trinity, but that, like the Muslims, shows fault with their perception of God, not in God Himself.


I thought about this too but realize Christian and Jews worship the same God but yes, Jews "perception" is different. However, Islam's Allah is totally different because of it's roots in paganism.

Joe Mizzi by-the-way is a former Catholic and I wouldn't say he's anti-catholic. Believe me I've experienced anti-catholicism but don't sense this from him on his website.


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