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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:26 pm 
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Huckleberry
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Matthew wrote:
What I'm saying is that the will cannot help but to choose the Good when it sees the Good in its essence.



It is incapable of doing otherwise?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:27 pm 
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Hammer of Heretics
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Yes, it is irresistable, the intellect sees its Object as good under every aspect.

FJ seems to think the will can remain indifferent in the face of its ultimate term and desire, which is contradictory.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:43 pm 
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Huckleberry
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Matthew wrote:
Yes, it is irresistable, the intellect sees its Object as good under every aspect.


Ok, so we've established that in heaven, our will cannot choose to do anything other than choose the good.

Are we talking about a spiritual heaven or an earth while in our resurrected bodies?

Is freewill required to love God?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Resident Philosopher
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Max Majestic wrote:
Let me preface this by saying that I understand the difference between positive and negative liberty. That being said, ya'll seem to be asserting that in heaven:

1) We have freewill.
2) Our will is free to choose one thing only: the good.
3) This is the essence of positive liberty.
4) God designed things this way.

Am I correct about your argument?


My argument is that what you have stated above does not conflict with itself... That it is possible. As to its reality, I could not say...

FJ

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:52 pm 
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Resident Philosopher
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Max Majestic wrote:
Matthew wrote:
What I'm saying is that the will cannot help but to choose the Good when it sees the Good in its essence.



It is incapable of doing otherwise?


The fact that there are no options other than the Good does not mean the will is not free.

FJ

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:01 pm 
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Huckleberry
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forumjunkie wrote:
Max Majestic wrote:
Matthew wrote:
What I'm saying is that the will cannot help but to choose the Good when it sees the Good in its essence.



It is incapable of doing otherwise?


The fact that there are no options other than the Good does not mean the will is not free.

FJ



Indeed, that seems to be the very assertion of positive liberty.

We had arrived at this point:

Ok, so we've established that in heaven, our will cannot choose to do anything other than choose the good.

Are we talking about a spiritual heaven or an earth while in our resurrected bodies?

Is freewill required to love God?

(I simply trying to understand what it is that people believe as there are vastly divergent beliefs on this point. In a perfect world, we'd have a protestant in here to give us their perspective as well.)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Resident Philosopher
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Max Majestic wrote:
forumjunkie wrote:
Max Majestic wrote:
Matthew wrote:
What I'm saying is that the will cannot help but to choose the Good when it sees the Good in its essence.



It is incapable of doing otherwise?


The fact that there are no options other than the Good does not mean the will is not free.

FJ



Indeed, that seems to be the very assertion of positive liberty.

We had arrived at this point:

Ok, so we've established that in heaven, our will cannot choose to do anything other than choose the good.

Are we talking about a spiritual heaven or an earth while in our resurrected bodies?

Is freewill required to love God?

(I simply trying to understand what it is that people believe as there are vastly divergent beliefs on this point. In a perfect world, we'd have a protestant in here to give us their perspective as well.)


I am not trying to express a personal belief. I was only commenting on what I thought was an overstatement on Matthew's part. He stated something that seemed to indicate a logical inconsistancy with a free will without the possibility of choosing evil. I don't think there is one.

As for my personal belief? Hmmm... Let me think about that.

FJ

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:25 pm 
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Matthew wrote:
Yes, it is irresistable, the intellect sees its Object as good under every aspect.

FJ seems to think the will can remain indifferent in the face of its ultimate term and desire, which is contradictory.


FJ seems to think the will can remain indifferent in the face of its ultimate term and desire, which is contradictory.

You apparently cannot read, or you just plain hate me... You are 'free' to 'choose'...

FJ

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:45 am 
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yes---paul had free will----but like any other believer of faith in JESUS CHRIST our LORD, he "submitted" his will to doing the will of the FATHER in the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT....

and he did it WITH JOY-----even when PERSECUTED...

He did get to points saying he couldnt wait to "be with HIM", but encouraginly to us he said, "to live is to CHRIST, to die is to GAIN...."


his will, like any other strong in the faith, is in submission to the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT.

and in heaven----(determines what "heaven" means)----but in my "protestant"(whatever that is---i only protest yankee fans), dispensationalist view, "new jerusalem" is eternity---and ALL things at that time wil be back to where God originally had them planned----us "WALKING WITH HIM" in the "dew" of the garden.....no problems---no sin---no temptaion---no choice but "right"eous ones.

amen.

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