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PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:55 pm 
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Another point Mark,

you wrongly equate God's not being "finished with Israel" with a 1,000 year Jewish theocracy.

But Romans 11 says nothing about a future Jewish theocracy. Maybe you should ask yourself why that is. After all, if dispensational theology is correct, Romans 11 would be the ideal place to mention the supposed future Jewish theocracy.

But yet again there is nothing but silence. God's "not beign finished with Israel" simply means He is still calling them to repentace, nothing to do with some imaginary 1,000 year Jewish theocracy.

Here is what Romans 11 is really saying:
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/disp/disp11.html

You see? There's no need to imagine any thousand year Jewish theocracies, with abominable sacrifices in the Temple. It's all much simpler than that.

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Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:09 am 
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I only use scripture sean---so I am not going to post or quote anything else.

if you dont believe in the MESSIANIC 1000 year kingdom of CHRIST at his 2nd coming---then you wont understand the purpose of ezekiels temple

the sacrifices are for non-believing jews----but you dont think it will happen---so there is no need to beat a dead horse.

you have been inserting your opinion into how scripture should be if....

romans 11 is perfect example---if it doesnt do something the way you think it does, than you wont beleive it....

i.e..... "but there is nothing but silence".....

thats fine----we dont have to agree.

I take God at his WORD--literally

you take it a different way--- so be it---AMEN.

concerning GERMANY---

no, I have never been there myself. my wife went over in late 70's to neunrade, its a small town in central part.

I was in England in the service--stationed in Bedfordshire.

I got to go to Scotland, we took the ferry from Dover to Belgium and went to paris for 4 days, and our flight was plannning trips to Ireland and "Oktoberfest" in Munich, but I left before those happened.

perhaps it better to end our "debate"---its has been friendly and I have learned much from your thoughts and your insight. And thanx for posting your site.

I will pray the LORD will bless you service there, and to keep you and your family safe.

in CHRIST---mark

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But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:22 am 
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Mark,

if you only use Scripture then I have to wonder where you find a 1,000 year restored Jewish theocracy in Revelation 20, when the chapter speaks of no such thing.

Neither for that matter does Ezekiel. Nor Romans 11. Nor anywhere else.

It is not easy to re-examine your position but you should be willing to do it.
You don't owe anything to this faulty dispensational theology you are espousing. The doctrine of a 1,000 year Jewish theocracy was unheard of until 1830. It was created in the imagination of John Darby. You have failed to support this notion from Scripture and I suspect deep down you know it too.

God bless,
Sean

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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum: benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:59 am 
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well before you get convinced its a "jewish theocracy"---that most definitely is the WRONG terminology----this is the MESSIANIC kingdom---CHRISTS kingdom on earth.

the gospel of matthew is entirely on the 'SON OF DAVID'---the promised MESSIAH to the jews.

as christians, these teachings are for us today, and are an example of how we should live----

the gospel is also about the "kingdom of heaven"----THE KINGDOM IS LIKE.....

would you like to start discussion on the future "kingdom of heaven"?

starting with luke 17:20-37---where it describes "furturistic" scenerios---because "fire and sulphur" certainly didnt rain down on the earth at the 1st incarnation of CHRIST.....
30) It will be like this when the "SON of MAN" is revealed.....

perhaps we should also determine what these terms mean:

son of DAVID
son of MAN
son of God

kingdom of heaven
kingdom of God

and does your bible in acts 1:6-7 read like this:

6) So when they met together, they asked him, "LORD, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom of heaven to Israel?
7) He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
8) But you will receive power when the HOLY SPIRIT comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

you see---THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is not here for Israel yet...

hows the LORDS prayer go---

"thy kingdom come"........ :shock:

"thy will be done,
on earth"..... :shock:

"as it is in heaven"... :wink:

the kingdom of heaven is "HEAVEN ON EARTH"----

that most certainly isnt going on now----

the bible says the lion will lie next to the lamb
the vipor will slither next to the child and not strike it....

remember what was posted outside the world trade center?

they will beat their swords into plowshares....

HAS NOT HAPPENED YET....

Jesus---the king of the JEWS---the MESSIAH promised to DAVID---davids throne is established foever, family and kingdom are established "before me" forever.----2 sam 7:16

anyone who teaches replacement theology---better heed this...

I will bless those who bless you, and CURSE THOSE WHO CURSE YOU....

deut 33:28
So Israel will live in safety alone; Jacobs spring is secure in a land of grain and new wine, where the heavens drop dew.

Israel HAS NEVER LIVED IN SAFETY ALONE----but now they are a nation again---and believe it----when CHRIST COMES AGAIN---he will set up his kingdom---and the jews will accept him as the "son of david"---the MESSIAH.

rev 20:3
He threw him into the abyss and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

chilioi---greek original text---means "thousand"----

the latin is "millenium"---thus millenial kingdom---MESSIANIC KINGDOM--kingdom of heaven.....all the same thing.....

kingdom of GOD----WE CAN DISCUSS ALL THESE TERMS---i will give you a chance to gather your verses and notes......

mark

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But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:30 pm 
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Mark,

you are making a number of false assumptions in your post.

Firstly, you imply a distinction between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven, when none such distinction exists.

Second, you fail to understand the two-age model which runs throughout the Gospels and the New Testament writings, instead supposing there is a "current age- 1,000 year millennial kingdom- eternal state" tripartite system. Such a tripartite division is inconsistent with the model presented in the Gospels, which model consistently speaks of this age and the age to come, that is, two ages, not three.

Third, you try to downplay the fact that the supposed future Messianic 1,000 year kingdom will be a Jewish theocracy. Yet this is exactly what dispensationalism teaches it will be. If you don't like the term "Jewish theocracy" then I don't think you should look forward to the onset of the "millennium" with Israel once again holding pre-eminnce and the abominable sacrifices again taking place in the Temple.

(Which reminds, me, you still haven't explained why God would destroy the Temple in 70 AD if He plans on having the sacrifices restored at some time in the future. Where that all leaves the Letter to the Hebrews...)

Fourth, you rely on an imaginative interpretation of selected texts to support a theological viewpoint that is contradicted by the method by whih the New Testament writers themselves interpreted Old Testament prophecy.

Fifthly, you fail to make the crucial distinction between ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel, thereby seeing promises which have already been fulfilled as yet to be fulfilled in a future Israelitic theocracy.

Sixthly, in speaking of the covenant promises to Israel, you have failed to account for the covenantal curses associated with disobedience and how these were realized in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

Seventhly, you fail to understand the concept of "already/not yet" fulfllment in relation to the coming of the Kingdom. This is a point which the progressive dispensationalists have finally cottoned onto.

You have to address all these issues Mark. Else all we will have is a verse slinging contest, and I really don't have the time or energy for this. If you are willing to examine your beliefs openly I am only too happy to help.

God bless,
Sean

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Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum: benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:22 am 
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General information on Dispensationalism.

New Scofield Reference Bible (Authorized King James Version), Editor: C.I. Scofield wrote:
A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect to his obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.
Three important concepts are implied in this definition: (1) a deposit of divine revelation concerning God's will, embodying what God requires of man as to his conduct; (2) man's stewardship of this divine revelation, in which he is responsible to obey it; and (3) a time-period, often call an "age," during which this divine revelation is dominant in the testing of man's obedience to God.

A covenant is a sovereign pronouncement of God by which He establishes a relationship of responsibility (1) between Himself and an individual (e.g. Adam in the Edenic Covenant), (2) between Himself and mankind in general (e.g. in the promise of the Noahic Covenant never again to destroy all flesh with a flood), (3) between Himself and a human family (e.g. the house of David in the promise of a kingly line in perpetuity through the Davidic Covenant).


7 Dispensations and 8 Covenants:
First Dispensation: Innocence – creation to fall – Edenic Covenant.
Second Dispensation: Conscience (Moral Responsibility) – fall to flood - Adamic Covenant.
Third Dispensation: Human Government – flood to Abraham – Noahic Covenant.
Fourth Dispensation: Promise – Abraham to Moses – Abrahamic Covenant.
Fifth Dispensation: Law – Moses to Christ – Mosaic Covenant, Palestinian Covenant, and Davidic Covenant.
Sixth Dispensation: Church (also called dispensation of the Spirit) or Grace – New Covenant.
Seventh Dispensation: Kingdom – Christ's rule over the earth for 1000 years (millennium).

Dispensationalism takes the "Kingdom" literally.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:29 am 
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these also are the "7 day week" in genesis---the 7th day being 'JEWISH SHABBAT"---when God rested---HIS SONS MESSIANIC KINGDOM, ruling from JERUSALEM.

for a day is like a 1000 years, and a 1000 years like a day.....

on the "4th day", the "lights of the sky-sun/moon" was created---genesis

on the "4th day", the "SON--LIGHT OF THE WORLD" was incarnate---dispensation

"those were but a "shadow" of the things to come...."(old testament/tanakh)

after "6 days--GOD rested"...on the "7th day"

and everthing was VERY GOOD-- genesis

on the "8th day" sin entered the world

on the "8th day" CHRIST RESURRECTED(SUNDAY) to cure the punishment of sin

on the "8th day" NEW JERUSALEM(rev 21 and 22)---dispensation

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But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


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