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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:28 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
JoyToBeCatholic wrote:

No one has commented about the submission to my husband part. This was advised to me on more than one occasion by more than 2 priests, as this issue comes up frequently, being the wife of an unbelieving husband. I should like to do what is more perfect, and what I feel conviction to do, but I've been told repeatedly that obedience IS the more perfect thing in all circumstances, unless, of course, it causes one to sin. I am curious if this makes sense to anyone here, since, despite my having mentioned it at least 2 or 3 times in my posts, no one has replied specifically to it.
Thanks,~Joy


Is it lawful or right to submit to a husband who would lead his wife away from the Church, and by definition, salvation?

To submit to one's husband is, in my opinion, based on the assumption that both the husband and wife are (practicing) Catholics.

This is important because it is the husband's obligation to lead his family. For Catholics, this means bringing up children in the Faith. Failure to do this is a failure on the husband's part. With no children in the family, it is still his responsibility to lead the wife as Christ leads the Church.

Husband is to wife as Christ is to Church.

This is why it is especially important (at least in my opinion) that Catholics marry Catholics. It seems impossible for a couple "to be one" when one spouse does not lead or support the other on the path towards heaven. That is one of the purposes of marriage as well.

sorry... rambling off-topic.


Yes, but my husband and I were both pretty much unbelievers at the time. Well, I was agnostic, and he was and still is, I don't know, an uncertain atheist I guess. He does engage in some theological debate with me, playing the devil's advocate, yet, when he talks to his protestant buddy, he talks as though he were a practicing Catholic, or at least a Christian.

Anyway, getting back to submission. I can think of numerous instances where a saint was praised for their profound obedience to their superiors, even when they were prohibited from a 'greater good', b/c obedience IS the greater good in many circumstances. And conversely, I can think of instances where saints were praised for standing firm in their practice of such and such despite opposition. I'm not afraid of opposition in regard to wearing a veil, but I want to do what is most perfect in the situation.
I was told by priests who, in my opinion, are very traditional, that obedience was the greater good. But I'm not certain if I raised the question about veils solely. I think my question may have focused more generally on my overall choice of dress. It's actually been a while since I've seen this group of priests and was going to go there this weekend. I will mention it specifically this time and see what their position is on it.

Quote:
I feel we (women) are called by God to be modest in our dress. That Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary and Mother of God has specifically spoken to this through the visions at Fatima where she told us that more people have gone to Hell for sins of the flesh than for any other sin.


And I also believe we are called by God to be modest in our dress, more so in fact than men, because we are capable of something men are not - bearing children. I have a wonder little pamphlet the monastery puts out about this. But, is not wearing a veil a 'sin of the flesh'? If it is, then the Church is seriously at fault for allowing it to be optional.

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Even the Mother of God covered her head.


But, didn't women cover their hair MOST of the time, in those days?

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I also feel that if you feel called to a pious devotion (such as covering your head) and you disregard this call to piety you are perhaps flirting with the near ocassion of sin, if not sin itself.


Ah, but I'm not certain that I have a calling to this particular pious devotion. Perhaps I am just opposed to many of the things that have changed in the Church over the past several years. Truly, I believe it was wrong for this to have become optional, but that is just my personal opinion. I have other personal opinions about things that go contrary to Church teaching. I have chosen to trust the Church. I know I wouldn't be disobedient t the Church if I were to cover, but am I wrong to insist on doing something that the Church no longer requires? And to the chagrin of my husband? This is the crux of the issue.

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Rather to submit to God, through humility and modesty and in obeyance of His calling to pious practice is the greater good.


I really don't think I agree with that. It depends on the thing God is calling one to. I will give this extreme example, but a good one none the less: From the book I am reading on the life of St. Gemma Galgani (by her confessor):

"Gemma, in order to obey her spiritual Father, was obliged to struggle with Jesus Himself, because she was given to understand that it was not Jesus, but the devil. Here I go further to add that she even resisted her Divine Spouse, although recognized as such by her director, solely because the obedience had forbidden her to stay to listen to Him. Such a struggle surely was superior to all human strength! Yet Gemma sustained it courageously and triumphed. 'Oh! how my good Jesus tempts me!' she said, 'but I hold steadfastly to the obedience though it entails great strife. O beloved sacrifice! O beloved and beautiful obedience!'". It goes even further about how Jesus appeared to her all covered with wounds and invited her to kiss Him. She burst into tears but would not approach him out of obedience. Now, if it considered more perfect to be obedient to men, rather than to be obedient IN THE FACE OF God'S CALLING, than who am I to insist I wear a veil, when my headship (my husband) is opposed to it? It's an irony in itself! Part of covering is acknowleging my husband as my headship, but my husband is opposed to it! So, I'm not sure I canjustify disobeying him, even if the call to wear a veil as valid.

I will seek the council of a very good priest at our local monastery - a very, VERY traditional priest whose opinion I have trusted in EVERY matter I've ever brought to him. If he says yay, I will go ahead with it and cover in church. And I will let you know how it turns out!
~Joy


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:42 pm 
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JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
And I also believe we are called by God to be modest in our dress, more so in fact than men, because we are capable of something men are not - bearing children. I have a wonder little pamphlet the monastery puts out about this. But, is not wearing a veil a 'sin of the flesh'? If it is, then the Church is seriously at fault for allowing it to be optional.


Given how visual men are - and how important hair must be to them (I base this on the number of models, actresses and the like whose hair is a defining feature) I think hair can be vistual stimulant to lustful thoughts.

Thus while not covering your hair isn't a "sin of the flesh" for you it may be the near ocassion of sin (or sin itself) for men who see you.

Just like it isn't necessarily a sin of the flesh for you to wear a tight fitting short skirt - but you refrain from doing so because it would be a temptation to men. Right?

I see hair and head covering to be a similar situation.

JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
But, didn't women cover their hair MOST of the time, in those days?


Yes they did - and quite likely for reasons similar to above.

JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
Quote:
I also feel that if you feel called to a pious devotion (such as covering your head) and you disregard this call to piety you are perhaps flirting with the near ocassion of sin, if not sin itself.


Ah, but I'm not certain that I have a calling to this particular pious devotion. Perhaps I am just opposed to many of the things that have changed in the Church over the past several years. Truly, I believe it was wrong for this to have become optional, but that is just my personal opinion. I have other personal opinions about things that go contrary to Church teaching. I have chosen to trust the Church. I know I wouldn't be disobedient t the Church if I were to cover, but am I wrong to insist on doing something that the Church no longer requires? And to the chagrin of my husband? This is the crux of the issue.


Okay - totally personal opinion here - but if you believe that the Church was wrong to change this discipline and you think it is something you should do - then isn't that being called to a particular pious practice?

At best (and I am not convinced that this is the case) the Church has said that this particular discipline is no longer required not that it is no longer allowed. So you are not wrong to desire to cover your head as a sign of your submission to God. It would be wrong to go to every woman in your parish and hand her a hat or scarf and tell them they're going to Hell if they don't cover.

As for the chagrin of your husband. Again I am not in your situation - but when my husband told me he didn't want me to look into the Catholic Church ... Well, submission be damned and I did it anyway. 4 years later he and I are both faithful Catholics. He also told me he didn't not want me to pray the Rosary. Guess what I did?!?! I believe it was the intervention of the Blessed Virgin that effected his conversion.

Where would I have been if I had submitted to his will there? I'd still be Lutheran.

JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
Quote:
Rather to submit to God, through humility and modesty and in obeyance of His calling to pious practice is the greater good.


I really don't think I agree with that. It depends on the thing God is calling one to.


Okay - obviously that is your perrogative as this is really nothing more than a conversatin of personal opinion.

But I would not submit to the headship of a non-believing husband. Becasue the flip side of the submission coin is that we are to submit to our husbands as they submit to Christ.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:01 pm 
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JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
Kenny wrote:
This to me is like "kneeling to receive Communion." When I started doing it, I was afraid that it might make me appear too pious. Later though you realise that you're doing this for God and not for any other ostensible purpose, and like it was mentioned a few times in this thread already, you might just become a source of encouragement for others who wish to do the same but never found the courage to because no one else had been doing it.


I had a similar experience about genuflecting before receiving communion. It took a lot for me to get over it and just start doing it. I just sorta united myself with the people I'd watched on EWTN earlier :wink: . I suppose I could do that with the veil, but I'm not convinced it would be proper given the circumstances I've already mentioned.

No one has commented about the submission to my husband part. This was advised to me on more than one occasion by more than 2 priests, as this issue comes up frequently, being the wife of an unbelieving husband. I should like to do what is more perfect, and what I feel conviction to do, but I've been told repeatedly that obedience IS the more perfect thing in all circumstances, unless, of course, it causes one to sin. I am curious if this makes sense to anyone here, since, despite my having mentioned it at least 2 or 3 times in my posts, no one has replied specifically to it.
Thanks,~Joy


The submission to husband question is a double edged sword. Since your husband is not Catholic then you have placed yourself in a precarious position. How can you be submissive to your husband who is not submissive to Christ and be yourself submissive to Christ?

Dan L

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:06 pm 
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What about 1 Peter 3:1?

Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives..

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:07 pm 
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But I would not submit to the headship of a non-believing husband. Becasue the flip side of the submission coin is that we are to submit to our husbands as they submit to Christ.


I've raised this issue with a priest before too. If the marriage is sacramental (and it is - having been renewed in the Church WITH my husband's premission), even though he is unbelieving, there is a certain amount of grace being given through the sacrament. I cannot say that my husband's decisions are not worthy of submission b/c he is unbelieving. Only in matters where he would cause me to sin, would it be justified. I really don't feel like this is an issue of personal opinion, and I think it is critically important for women to understand this - that it is not justifiable to oppose your husband based on his non-religiousness-only if it would cause sin.

I did give you an example of a circumstance where God was calling Gemma to do something, and she had to resist Him in obedience to her director. Likewise, for a period of time, Padre Pio was prohibited from saying mass in public b/c of the stir He would cause. But wasn't His example to others the more perfect thing? Ought he have disobeyed his superiors and said mass as usual? No, he obeyed them and said mass alone. Obedience is always the preferred and most perfect choice in all things, unless to do so would cause one to sin or others to sin, EVEN if it means avoiding a greater good.

As for looking at a woman's hair being an occasion of sin for a man, one could not justify being ANYWHERE without a covering then, b/c a man may be tempted by her hair - not just in church! And cannot a woman's face also lead a man into lustful thoughts? Ought we cover that also?

~Joy


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:12 pm 
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Joy -

You said:

Quote:
I really don't feel like this is an issue of personal opinion, and I think it is critically important for women to understand this - that it is not justifiable to oppose your husband based on his non-religiousness-only if it would cause sin.


First let me say that I do believe that this is a matter of personal opinion. The issue of submission to one's spouse is a matter of following Biblical principles. Just like the issue of covering one's head. In fact both issues are covered in letters from St. Paul to the Corinthians.

Further I believe if your non-believing spouse is asking you to abstain from a pious devotion that you believe is right, proper, correct and called for by the Bible, through the immutable traditions of the Church or by the dogmatic teachings of the Church he is, in essence, asking you to obey him and not Christ and not Christ's Church.

In my mind that is asking you to sin.

Which is why when my husband asked me to stop investigating the Catholic Church and to stop praying the Rosary I did not submit to my husband's will but rather obeyed Christ's calling to His own Church.

And as I said - I am not in your position. If I were I might see things differently. I only gave my personal opinion and what I would do.

Which is not binding on you. Nor is it a judgement upon you.

Regards the issue of being a temptation to sin ... Perhaps you are right. But I feel that St. Paul must have addressed the issue of women praying and prophesising without covering their heads for a reason.

Thus I prefer to err on the side of pious caution (so to speak) and cover my head during prayer and worship.

Again - this is just me and has no real bearing on your decisions as this is not a matter of doctrine but of discipline and personal devotions.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:33 pm 
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Carole,

To ask you not to look into the Catholic Chruch IS asking you to sin. Asking me not to wear a veil is not a sin. You may consider it a matter of opinion, and that is fine. I agree to disagree. I just want to point out that there is a distinct differenct between being prohibited from doing something that, if not done, would cause your damnation, and being prohibited from doing something that, though more perfect, is not binding. To argue otherwise is to dispute the Church, which, as I said earlier, I chose not to do. The Church does not teach that praying or going to church sans veil is a sin, therefore, I trust her. And I prefer obedience to my husband in this matter over my personal opinion about it, or my temptation to sola scriptura, or the traditions of the Church that are no longer in practice around here (to the acceptance of The Church). Unless a priest tells me otherwise, I don't see why I should press the issue and insist on disobeying BOTH the priest AND my husband!

I know your opinion is not binding and I know you are not trying to be judgmental. And I will not try to have the final word with you on this any more. I just feel that you are, in a sense, telling me that I'm disobeying God somehow by being submissive to my husband in this matter, when God has given the Church as His voice on earth, and I am not disobeying the Church by not wearing a covering.

Peace,~Joy


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:37 pm 
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As for looking at a woman's hair being an occasion of sin for a man, one could not justify being ANYWHERE without a covering then, b/c a man may be tempted by her hair - not just in church! And cannot a woman's face also lead a man into lustful thoughts? Ought we cover that also?


I have to totally agree with you that at anytime and any place a man can and most likely will look at a woman with lust in his heart. But, the issue here is that we go to Church to keep our minds and hearts on God and we strive to keep ourselves free from the stain of sin so that we may receive the Eucharist. So, if there is a possibility a man can lust after you in Church than we, as women, need to do everything within our power to keep that from happening. That way they may receive the Eucharist with a pure heart and thus be strengthened as they go out into the world.
Now, I will say this, as Carole has stated. This is a personal choice.No one, whether they wear a veil or not, should be looked down on because of that choice. I will also say that if it would cause that great of a problem with your husband, even after you have discussed it with him as to why you are doing this, then it would probably be best not to wear the veil.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:37 pm 
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JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
I just feel that you are, in a sense, telling me that I'm disobeying God somehow by being submissive to my husband in this matter, when God has given the Church as His voice on earth, and I am not disobeying the Church by not wearing a covering.

Peace,~Joy


Whatever.

I have two sets of house plans that are due to the Architect by this afternoon - I don't really have the time to care if you think that I'm telling you that you're disobeying God. I've told you that isn't my intention. If you choose to continue to believe it is there is really nothing I can (or care to) do to change your opinion.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:48 pm 
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Carole wrote:
[
Whatever.

I have two sets of house plans that are due to the Architect by this afternoon - I don't really have the time to care if you think that I'm telling you that you're disobeying God. I've told you that isn't my intention. If you choose to continue to believe it is there is really nothing I can (or care to) do to change your opinion.


Absurdity! I'm just being honest. It wasn't meant as an attack on you.

Your remarks clearly indicate that you believe not wearing a veil is sinful. Otherwise, why would you have persisted to give your opinion about it? I thought the point of discussing these things on forum like this was to present different sides of the equation, and, hopefully, seek a better understanding of things. As I said, I'm fine with disagreeing. It's our perogative.

And I DO care. And I think you do as well. Good luck with your house plans.

God Bless,
~Joy


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:50 pm 
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Hey, what about all my posts...what about the verse in 1 Peter...it's not fair...waaahhhaaaa.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:54 pm 
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JoyToBeCatholic wrote:
Your remarks clearly indicate that you believe not wearing a veil is sinful.

God Bless,
~Joy


No Joy, I don't believe that not wearing a veil is sinful.

I dont' know why I'm wasting time with this - except that I absolutely hate being misrepresented.

I believe - if you actually care to really know what it is I believe - is that if one feels called to a pious devotion and they don't do it that may indeed be sinful.

Sort of like if one is being called to a religious life (sister, brother or priest) and ignores the calling - that may indeed be a sin - placing our own desires and will above that of God or the sin of pride in some cases.

I believe that being submissive to a husband (or obedient to a parent) if their wishes are contrary to a devotional or vocational calling can be a sin. For instance a son who knows that God is calling him to the priesthood who refuses the calling in order to obey his parents is honouring the 4th commandment to the point of sinning by disobeying God's will.

If you aren't being called to a particular devotion then not participating in that devotion is not a sin.

If you aren't called to a devotion to Christ through headcovering then you are undoubtedly being called to a devotion to him through something else. Whatever that something is - denying that calling might be a sin (or a near ocassion of).

Notice I said, "can be" or "might be" a sin. Not definitely is a sin.

But not wearing a head covering in and of itself is not sinful and I have never said that it was.


Quote:
Otherwise, why would you have persisted to give your opinion about it?


#1 - Because you wrote:

Quote:
Just keep giving me more reasons to squelch the pride and go with the covering, ,please!


and

#2 - Because you kept talking about it. Silly me I thought we were having a discussion based on personal opinion and personal experience.

and finally

#3 - Because you kept either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I was trying to say and I thought I could at least correct your misunderstandings.

Apparently I was wrong on all three counts.

Consider me done.

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Last edited by Carole on Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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st_ignatius110 wrote:
Hey, what about all my posts...what about the verse in 1 Peter...it's not fair...waaahhhaaaa.


Sorry, I got caught up. I liked the addition. It is precisely what I'm talking about.

I found this a little while ago :

Quote:
That there is no mistaking what St. Peter means is confirmed by the remaining context. First, the rest of verse 1 reveals that the wife’s subjection to her husband is such an important feature of their relationship that it will be instrumental in converting the non-Christian husband to the Faith (“that, if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word, by the conversation of the wives”). Obviously, an assertive or domineering wife would not be conducive to his conversion.



It definately supports exactly what the priest told me.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:15 pm 
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Quote:
But not wearing a head covering in and of itself is not sinful and I have never said that it was. .........I believe - if you actually care to really know what it is I believe - is that if one feels called to a pious devotion and they don't do it that may indeed be sinful.


Which, in an abstract way, is saying that, in my situation although I feel called to cover, but chose not to out of obedience to my husband, that may be sinful.

Me:
Quote:
Your remarks clearly indicate that you believe not wearing a veil is sinful


I'm sorry, I should have said, that your remarks clearly insinuate that someone in my circumstances may be sinning by not wearing a veil. And I feel compelled to defend my stance on this, based on the submission to husband argument, not b/c I feel defensive, or want to give offense, but b/c I believe it is important, not just for me, and not just in this circumstance, but for all women with this or similar circumstances. It is a simple matter of trying to, in Christian charity, express what I believe to be an important aspect of a married, Christian woman's life.

Quote:
I believe that being submissive to a husband (or obedient to a parent) if their wishes are contrary to a devotional or vocational calling can be a sin.


And I believe, and can point to several examples from the lives of saints, that obeying a parent and abandoning a vocational calling is not only is not sinful, but is most perfect. I believe it was St. Rita of Cascia who wanted to be a religious, but her parents insisted she marry, and arranged a marriage for her to an abusive husband. Sinful? CERTAINLY! But on the part of the PARENTS, not on St. Rita.

Look, this is getting off-topic now. Perhaps I will begin a new thread on obedience and submission, and see where that goes.

As for my situation, I will consult my confessor tomorrow.
~Joy


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:04 pm 
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i think we're finished with this topic...

if it really really needs to be reopened, plz contact one of the other mods...
(i won't be back before monday)..


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:17 am 
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Joy has respectfully asked that this thread be reopened since she has recently spoken with her confessor...

I know some of us have been interested in hearing about it...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:22 am 
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Joy has respectfully asked that this thread be reopened since she has recently spoken with her confessor...


Thanks Tango.

In the case of headcovering vs submission to an unbelieving husband (as I could best record his words):

"though covering is a beautiful tradition, it is accidental, that is, not essential to the practice of your faith. Because of this, it is a greater good for you not to give cause for him to excuse himself from mass. Knowing that he would be embarrassed by the covering and possibly use this as an excuse, it is more prudent to respect his wishes, in the hopes that he will continue to accompany you to mass, and hopefully, eventually be converted to a more devout practice of the faith. And perhaps one day he will hear a homily about the importance of womens' headcovering" .

Also, "It is always a greater good for a wife to submit to her husband in all things that would not lead her to sin. For instance, if he were to recommend the practice of contraception, you could not submit to this. But in all things that do not cause you to sin, you should obey."

I didn't ask why. I had already taken so much of his time, and generally, he only allows one question in the confessional, and not further questioning after his answer.

I respect everyone else's opinions about this, and realize that other priest may say differently, but I just wanted to clarify what I have been instructed is best in this circumstance. And, btw, my dh and I discussed it this weekend, and it sounds as if he may changing his mind about it! :D
~Joy

Thanks, Joy


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