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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:37 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Our Lord said "Repent" and "Sin no more". Obviously we'll have to use proper communication, but helping people to move from darkness and towards light is necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:49 pm 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Jack3 wrote:
Our Lord said "Repent" and "Sin no more". Obviously we'll have to use proper communication, but helping people to move from darkness and towards light is necessary.


Well said!


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:25 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
It's not that I'm not aware of how some people tell other people what they should and should not do, I'm questioning whether or not it's helpful. Does it work? Just because something occurs "in every day human conversation" doesn't mean it's a good way to behave.

Is telling people "to stop sinning" a good way to behave? If you didn't mean literally telling "them" to stop sinning, using the words "stop sinning", what words would you use instead? How would you go about telling "them" to stop sinning?

And you still haven't told me who you mean by "them" or who you mean by "we".


Them = those needing help
We = those willing to help

Like in many situations in life, there is always a them and we. The person doing the helping perhaps doing a little better, but yet not perfect himself. Sometimes, the person helping himself might be doing worse, but still yet, he is willing to help.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:32 pm 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
It's not that I'm not aware of how some people tell other people what they should and should not do, I'm questioning whether or not it's helpful. Does it work? Just because something occurs "in every day human conversation" doesn't mean it's a good way to behave.

Is telling people "to stop sinning" a good way to behave? If you didn't mean literally telling "them" to stop sinning, using the words "stop sinning", what words would you use instead? How would you go about telling "them" to stop sinning?

And you still haven't told me who you mean by "them" or who you mean by "we".


Them = those needing help
We = those willing to help

Like in many situations in life, there is always a them and we. The person doing the helping perhaps doing a little better, but yet not perfect himself. Sometimes, the person helping himself might be doing worse, but still yet, he is willing to help.

I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:08 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Our Lord said "Repent" and "Sin no more". Obviously we'll have to use proper communication, but helping people to move from darkness and towards light is necessary.

Jesus also said “Take up your bed and walk” to a man “who had an infirmity thirty-eight years”. That doesn’t mean we should say the same to people who are infirm and unable to walk.

Jesus said “Repent” and “Sin no more” to sinners. Do you not think that we are in the equivalent position of the sinners to whom Jesus said “Repent” and “Sin no more” rather than in the equivalent position of Jesus?


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:39 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:39 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


Why?


That's what I'm wondering.

Especially since it could be said that the entirety of Scripture is essentially God's answer to Cain's question, "Am I my brother's keeper."

God's answer in Scripture is an emphatic "YES!"

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:24 am 
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For anyone still interested in David Bentley Hart and his book arguing for universalism, Michael Pakaluk shows how DBH misrepresents St. Basil

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusi ... ical-fraud

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:05 am 
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I have not found Hart reliable since the natural law dispute, in which he was not only wrong but also rejected correction when it was offered.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:06 pm 
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He is exceedingly arrogant. His book on universalism also do not contain a single footnote or reference. We're just supposed to take him at his word.

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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:51 am 
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Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


Why?

Because one sinner telling another sinner to "stop sinning" doesn't work and isn't helpful.

The sinner who tells another sinner to stop sinning puts herself in a 'holier-than-thou' position, and nobody wants to listen to 'holier-than-thou' people.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:45 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Denise Dee wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


Why?

Because one sinner telling another sinner to "stop sinning" doesn't work and isn't helpful.

The sinner who tells another sinner to stop sinning puts herself in a 'holier-than-thou' position, and nobody wants to listen to 'holier-than-thou' people.


Denise, one of the seven spiritual works of mercy is to "admonish the sinner". Of course that doesn't mean it should be done with harshness. Correction needs to be given in loving concern for the person's salvation, and after having prayed for the grace to do so kindly. Sometimes the person is irritated, and sometimes the person accepts it. We can continue to pray for them. We can plant seeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:36 am 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


Why?

Because one sinner telling another sinner to "stop sinning" doesn't work and isn't helpful.

The sinner who tells another sinner to stop sinning puts herself in a 'holier-than-thou' position, and nobody wants to listen to 'holier-than-thou' people.


Denise, one of the seven spiritual works of mercy is to "admonish the sinner". Of course that doesn't mean it should be done with harshness. Correction needs to be given in loving concern for the person's salvation, and after having prayed for the grace to do so kindly. Sometimes the person is irritated, and sometimes the person accepts it. We can continue to pray for them. We can plant seeds.

Which is why I said:
Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


When you say that one of the seven spiritual works of mercy is to "admonish the sinner", we must never forget that we are all sinners.


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 Post subject: Re: Is hell the natural fate of man?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:55 am 
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Handmaids of the Lord
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Denise Dee wrote:
Dorothy B. wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


Why?

Because one sinner telling another sinner to "stop sinning" doesn't work and isn't helpful.

The sinner who tells another sinner to stop sinning puts herself in a 'holier-than-thou' position, and nobody wants to listen to 'holier-than-thou' people.


Denise, one of the seven spiritual works of mercy is to "admonish the sinner". Of course that doesn't mean it should be done with harshness. Correction needs to be given in loving concern for the person's salvation, and after having prayed for the grace to do so kindly. Sometimes the person is irritated, and sometimes the person accepts it. We can continue to pray for them. We can plant seeds.

Which is why I said:
Denise Dee wrote:
I can agree with you when you say “those willing to help” should help “those needing help”.

I cannot agree with the original wording that “we should also tell them to stop sinning”.


When you say that one of the seven spiritual works of mercy is to "admonish the sinner", we must never forget that we are all sinners.


Yes, we must never forget that we are all sinners...and when I am admonished I need to take it in God's good grace.


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