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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:42 pm 
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I just don't know how such a thing could be implemented when they can't even keep tabs on books.

Granted, you can autumate one and not the other but still.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:57 am 
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Dominic wrote:


Barron teaches error on Christ's perfect knowledge and Hell. Balthasarian garbage would get a pass I see.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:14 am 
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Alexandros wrote:
Barron teaches error on Christ's perfect knowledge and Hell. Balthasarian garbage would get a pass I see.

For as many voices are out there now, I almost would rather have clergy only talking. There is no sense of having truth if most people can’t shuffle through it all. Even in error, it would at the very least be within their perview. In times past (before technology), the consciousness of the Church was clearer in so far you knew where the Church in Constantinople stood, and the positions/opinions were limited. You allowed the Church’s system to work itself out. Which ultimately meant skirmishes from within, Councils, letters, etc. Now the fighting has just expanded and it’s causing confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:41 am 
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So what would happen with this is that so-called "conservatives" would be cancelled and progressives would be given a free pass. This is just the state of the Church today.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:40 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
So what would happen with this is that so-called "conservatives" would be cancelled and progressives would be given a free pass. This is just the state of the Church today.


Perhaps that is what happens. At which point we should pray.

The idea that this isn't a good idea because the wrong people may be the ones in power is just odd to me. That's the concern of world institutions only.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:42 pm 
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I have to disagree. There are provisions in canon law that are there specifically to protect laity from unreasonable use of authority by clergy, and there are provisions that are there specifically to protect priests and deacons from unreasonable use of authority by bishops.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:46 pm 
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I speak specifically of faith and morals.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:52 pm 
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The principle still applies. Prudence is still a virtue.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:08 pm 
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But these issues aren't the preview of reason alone. That's why ultimately the buck stops upwards; even though the bottom has something to say.

Am I missing something?

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Yes. God does not protect individual bishops against error.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:20 pm 
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I knew that much Fr.

What I said still stands though. It just means it goes higher up like a Council or Papal approval if necessary.

What am I failing to note?

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:09 pm 
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That going up the chain is difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:59 pm 
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Yes it is. That’s just the way it’s been. Always takes quite a bit of turmoil for the Church to respond at times. I realize it’s also not a top-down arbitrary system where all comes from the top. Most things brew at the bottom and push to the top. I was just trying to distinguish it from, say Eastern Orthodoxy or some system that leaves things brewing in the bottom with no solution in sight. The Church can work from either direction with the everyone understanding where the buck stops.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:27 pm 
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It's never worked terribly clearly or swiftly. Eventually we wake up one morning and discover that the hot issue for the past decades (or centuries) has gone away and something else is grabbing attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:40 pm 
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Of the two times I've heard Bishop Barron speak on youtube, my thought was that what he is saying is in error.


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:49 am 
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Dominic wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Barron teaches error on Christ's perfect knowledge and Hell. Balthasarian garbage would get a pass I see.


For as many voices are out there now, I almost would rather have clergy only talking. There is no sense of having truth if most people can’t shuffle through it all. Even in error, it would at the very least be within their perview. In times past (before technology), the consciousness of the Church was clearer in so far you knew where the Church in Constantinople stood, and the positions/opinions were limited. You allowed the Church’s system to work itself out. Which ultimately meant skirmishes from within, Councils, letters, etc. Now the fighting has just expanded and it’s causing confusion.


What’s the point then? Hersey and error will still spread. We will just get things like Barron’s errors, Kasper’s garbage, Fr. James Martin’s debauchery, and Francis’s gobbledygook. Everyone would then seek out officially approved sources, which will funnel them into people like Barron, and create a mindset that further elevates erroneous and heretical stances since they appear to be in the majority.

You think stifling the voices of many Catholics, right or wrong, is going to speed up the process of correction? Why?

If a man has the ability to speak the truth in the face of error, we should back down because we’re not clergy? The Church is in an extreme crisis and hemorrhaging in some places and we should leave it up to clerics? The majority of men are still following the prerogatives of wishy-washy theology and philosophy that is keeping the fires of crisis burning.

Anyone who is able should speak up within their capacity (not all should of course) - if not then we are cowards, not fit for the Church militant.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:32 am 
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Alexandros wrote:
What’s the point then? Hersey and error will still spread. We will just get things like Barron’s errors, Kasper’s garbage, Fr. James Martin’s debauchery, and Francis’s gobbledygook. Everyone would then seek out officially approved sources, which will funnel them into people like Barron, and create a mindset that further elevates erroneous and heretical stances since they appear to be in the majority.

You think stifling the voices of many Catholics, right or wrong, is going to speed up the process of correction? Why?

If a man has the ability to speak the truth in the face of error, we should back down because we’re not clergy? The Church is in an extreme crisis and hemorrhaging in some places and we should leave it up to clerics? The majority of men are still following the prerogatives of wishy-washy theology and philosophy that is keeping the fires of crisis burning.

Anyone who is able should speak up within their capacity (not all should of course) - if not then we are cowards, not fit for the Church militant.

I see.

The Church Militant will save us.

I don’t particularly care for the us vs them approach. It’s just Catholics……some more broken than others. That isn’t to be confused with being complacent.

The idea isn’t to give more power to one over the other (even though that is what will inevitable happen). The idea is to shrink the Colosseum down and not limited to just clergy.

What we are seeing is not new, but it is certainly different.

Different in that it isn’t one side vs another (closer to how it was in times past). If we simply stick with those wishing to submit to the Church and ignore far extremes, it’s still messy. You have the Remnant types talking about Voris and his ilk. You have Voris talking about the conservatives, you have FSSPers talking about SSPSers and so on. It’s several sides and it’s being done in a platform that’s never existed before. It ends up dividing at a rapid pace. I clearly remember the Remnant guys being chummy with Miachel Voris and even guys that agree tremendously have shifted away. Is this your solution?

This scripture comes to mind:
1 Cor 3:3…While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,* are you not of the flesh, and behaving in an ordinary human way?b4Whenever someone says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apollos,” are you not merely human?

Like I said, too many voices. God has always worked this out.

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:21 am 
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When a person takes the time to understand Church teaching correctly, then all of the other "voices" can be tuned out. This leads to stability for that person and others. The answer is simple. It is not 'things have changed and there is great freaking out across the land.' Nonsense will remain nonsense regardless of what form it takes or what platform it uses. In everyday reality, the us vs them scenario does not occur. It is invented as part of the ongoing attacks against the Church which she has had to deal with since the beginning. Jesus Christ promised He would guard His Church and He will raise up the truth in the midst of error.


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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
When a person takes the time to understand Church teaching correctly, then all of the other "voices" can be tuned out. This leads to stability for that person and others. The answer is simple. It is not 'things have changed and there is great freaking out across the land.' Nonsense will remain nonsense regardless of what form it takes or what platform it uses. In everyday reality, the us vs them scenario does not occur. It is invented as part of the ongoing attacks against the Church which she has had to deal with since the beginning. Jesus Christ promised He would guard His Church and He will raise up the truth in the midst of error.


I don’t necessarily disagree, I just think it’s short sighted to think that men like Bishop Barron don’t take “the time to understand Church teaching correctly”……

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 Post subject: Re: Apologist and Theologians asking for permission
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:23 pm 
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Either someone speaks the truth or they don't. Each individual Catholic should educate himself about what he believes. Then, where appropriate, error should be pointed out. It is worth noting that only a few names get the most 'air time' on Catholic sites. Each of us is a servant and that includes Pope Francis. I encourage my fellow Catholics to point out error in charity so that others may not be confused.


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