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 Post subject: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:59 pm 
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Love Has No Dignity


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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:12 pm 
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Just can't resist name-calling those who disagree, can you? It's not convincing.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:19 pm 
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It's real simple: I defend the doctrine of Hell because I believe it is true, not because I want to to be true. The persistence with which opponents of the doctrine charge its defenders with this doesn't persuade me that I'm wrong. It makes me think they're doctors who can't diagnose themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:49 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Just can't resist name-calling those who disagree, can you? It's not convincing.


Yes, but he does have a point w/those private revelations...

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:13 am 
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It's hard to prove a negative, of course, but I wonder what the source of that claim is.

I also firmly believe that the sun danced over Fatima on Oct. 13, 1917, while the children were being given, among other things, a vision of Hell, so if no Orthodox visionary ever saw Hell, it wouldn't matter to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:28 am 
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People being able to "see" things which they a-priori want to believe is true isn't anything extraordinary.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:38 am 
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There is more than enough in the bible and my own interior conviction of the reality of Hell, I need no other revelation to convince me.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:25 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Just can't resist name-calling those who disagree, can you? It's not convincing.


Yeah, you're right. I have a real attitude about people who are theological charlatans, who hurt people by the crappola they teach, and who even kill faithful followers who follow their false teachings into death. I'm thinking about a young girl I knew who listened to one of those Pentecostal faith healer types, threw away her diabetes medicine because he insisted she was healed by Jaaaaaayzuz, and is now pushing up daisies.

Of course, I may be in good company. Someone I try to follow once called theological charlatans "White-washed sepulchars, brood of vipers" and other nice things.

Don't ask me to make nice regarding people who need a verbal chastizement.

Your comment is disappointing in another manner as well, Father. You do to me exactly what David Bentley Hart's detractors continue to do (and in the process, make themselves like infantile). They whine about how mean-spirited he is and never once give a substantive response to the ideas he sets forth in his book. "It's garbage" (said to me by an Orthodox priest with whom I was discussing the book) is not a critique or a debate point.

Perhaps you would like to try again and actually take to task some of the points I made???


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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 pm 
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You'd probably do well to get out from under David Bentley Hart's spell

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:11 pm 
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I agree with peregrinator. It is insufferable arrogance to hurl names at people who hold to what the Church has taught for centuries.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:16 pm 
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BTW, I have responded to the substance of your critiques often in the past. It is the belittling of your opponents and your repeated dragging out of the same distortions that gives me very little incentive to try it again.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:17 pm 
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I mean, I agree that the question "how can God, Who is Love, condemn souls to eternal torment?" is a difficult one and I'm not sure we'll find a satisfactory answer as long as this world persists. On the other hand, to insist that the answer is "He can't" is to put claims on God, to act as though He has duties toward us rather than the other way around. God doesn't owe us anything; He has given us a gift we can't even begin to repay merely in creating us.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:43 pm 
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    There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the full support of Scripture and, specially, of our Lord’s own words; it has always been held by Christendom; and it has the support of reason.

    PROBLEM OF PAIN, chap. VIII, "Hell", 1st para, p. 106, 1947 American ed.

Ed and others might dispute the claims Lewis makes in the second sentence, but I agree with them, and the entire quotation expresses my sentiments well.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:19 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Just can't resist name-calling those who disagree, can you? It's not convincing.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's real simple: I defend the doctrine of Hell because I believe it is true, not because I want to to be true. The persistence with which opponents of the doctrine charge its defenders with this doesn't persuade me that I'm wrong. It makes me think they're doctors who can't diagnose themselves.
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I agree with peregrinator. It is insufferable arrogance to hurl names at people who hold to what the Church has taught for centuries.
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
BTW, I have responded to the substance of your critiques often in the past. It is the belittling of your opponents and your repeated dragging out of the same distortions that gives me very little incentive to try it again.


I agree with Father. I am an Eastern Catholic myself.

You treat the Western tradition and its Fathers with much bitterness and hostility even without understating it well.
Also, you keep bringing up the same old points to which posters have already responded.
When Father points it out, he is right.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:52 am 
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Jack3 wrote:
I agree with Father. I am an Eastern Catholic myself.

You treat the Western tradition and its Fathers with much bitterness and hostility even without understating it well.
Also, you keep bringing up the same old points to which posters have already responded.
When Father points it out, he is right.


I was going to eschew any further responses here, but your post needs a reply.

Having never lived in America (I assume) and having never been deeply involved in American Protestant theology as I have, I will cut you a pass on this one. You have NO IDEA how much bad theology and a bad view of our loving heavenly Father hurts people. None. You cannot imagine the number of people who are warped from strange Protestant theologies. Let me see if I can clue you in.

Calvinism, which I practiced for 13 years, being sure that having discovered it I was "one of the elect" and guaranteed heaven. The Calvinist heresy of "the election of the saints" is responsible for much of the suffering which took place at the hands of Calvinists. Let me point out South Africa as a prime example. When you are "one of the elect," you view all others who are not Calvinists as God's enemies rather than God's children. And, of course, God will mightily smite his enemies, therefore, you, as an agent of God's will on earth, have carte blanche to do the same. God's enemies are not to be treated with mercy. They are idolators, blasphemers, and must be subjected to those who hold to the "true Gospel." Thus, it was easy for the Dutch Calvinists who went to South Africa to look at the people there and believe that sujugating them, enslaving them, and maltreating them was perfectly fine.

The same is true of the wretched Puritans who infested this country. Imagine Governor Winthrope delighting in the killing of Indian women and children, saying that he was an agent of God's justice and delighting in sending them to the hell that they deserve.

And then there is my own story, which I could run out to pages and pages, but I will keep short. Do you know what a Bob Jones Fundamentalist is? It is a kind of Christian who is mean-spirited, judgmental, and harsh. Bob Jones preachers use the Angry God to keep people in line and make their parishioners behave. It is no wonder that it is a dying religion here and that people are looking for the truth elsewhere. It is the definition of toxic religion, and unfortunately, it is being kept alive by dysfunctional people who are comfortable operating in a dysfunctional milieu. I was a Bob Jones style Fundamentalist for the first 12 years of my renewed baptismal vows (i.e. coming to repentance and leaving my sins behind) and it warped me badly. Not only that, my children now want nothing - NOTHING - to do with Christ, which breaks my heart. What child wants to have a relationship with someone who is always threatening them because they step out of line. Don't pray enough? God's gonna git you! Don't give your tithe? God's gonna git you! Drink a little wine with dinner. Oh! God's gonna git you BIG TIME! And the Rapture of the church is coming and the devil is going to take everyone to hell. My son told me a month ago that he was scared spitless about that happening.

These are the same people who with glee pronounced God's wrath on Hank Hanegraaff when he converted from Protestantism to Orthodoxy. Surely the cancer that was discovered after his conversion was a sign of God's wrath on him, and his sure entrance into hell except he repent and return to Protestantism. Pray for him? NOT ON YOUR LIFE! Judge him? You bet!

I
AM
RESPONSIBLE.

I listened to these braying asses and their hate-filled, threatening Jesus because I came out of a dysfunctional family and this was something I understood. There is a whole psychology about this that would take hours to explain. Now I am working my way out of it, but the damage is done. My children can only see God as someone with whom they want nothing to do.

BAD THEOLOGY HURTS PEOPLE!!!!

And the West is filled with it. From the happy-slappy nonsense of churches like the Methodists and Episcopalians, whose Jesus looks the other way as they commit sodomy and marry gays, thinking that God is luuuuuuuuv, and therefore we express that love by letting people do whatever their depraved little hearts wish, to the hard-nosed, mean-spirited Fundamentalism I have described, my dear brother, you have NO IDEA just how screwed up American Christianity has become.

And yes, I am damn angry that I was decieved by these people for 25 years, that it hurt my family, and that they were even allowed to speak their falsehoods. And in response to what I know you and others are going to say in response - yes, I have prayed about this, I have confessed it, and most of the time I don't even bother thinking about it, but from time to time, especially in forusm like this, it bubbles to the surface.

Probably the best thing I can do for myself this Sunday, after making this post and confessing my utter distaste for Western theology in general, is to go to Confession and tell my priest and God about it.

Then keep on working on forgiving, which apparently is a sticking point in my growth. I am also going to copy this post and send it to my spiritual director. There is no defense for my attitude, but I post this because I wanted you to know the WHY of what is going on in my life and how bad things are over here.


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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Light of the East's post is as good as anything I've ever read on this site. I completely agree with his assessment of how Protestant theology - particularly the more vicious strains - have warped American values in ways we don't think about. That bit about the "elect" seems to sum it up nicely. If I'm elect and you're not, you deserve whatever happens to you. This also leads to the pernicious Prosperity Gospel nonsense.

Welcome to the Outback Saddle-Sore Gumption Ridge Congregation. Would you like cream and sugar with your coffee?

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:51 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
Light of the East's post is as good as anything I've ever read on this site. I completely agree with his assessment of how Protestant theology - particularly the more vicious strains - have warped American values in ways we don't think about. That bit about the "elect" seems to sum it up nicely. If I'm elect and you're not, you deserve whatever happens to you. This also leads to the pernicious Prosperity Gospel nonsense.

Welcome to the Outback Saddle-Sore Gumption Ridge Congregation. Would you like cream and sugar with your coffee?


My assessment may be correct, but my attitude is all wrong. Your prayers for me to find a forgiving and healed heart in this matter are appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:49 pm 
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LotE,
I pray that you find healing, and that your children find the love of Jesus.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Last edited by Jack3 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Love has no dignity
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:06 pm 
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This wasn't the best time to register a further objection.

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