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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:24 am 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
Unnatural means contrary to right reason.

It’s quite reasonable to believe that wearing clothes in a hot climate is “unnatural” but not contrary to right reason.


That says way more about you than it does about the principle he posited.

All you've shown is that what the Church calls right reason and what someone subjectively(or nominally) coins as "reasonable" are not the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:43 am 
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"Right reason" is a much different concept than "seems reasonable."

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"Right reason" is a much different concept than "seems reasonable."

That’s what I’m saying. It’s reasonable for a person to believe that wearing clothes in a hot climate is “unnatural”, it’s a very common and legitimate understanding of the meaning of “unnatural”. But the same person can simultaneously believe that wearing clothes in a hot climate is not “contrary to reason”. Therefore, according to a common and legitimate definition of “unnatural”, it does not mean “contrary to reason”.

So, if jack3 is talking to someone and is saying that “all sin is unnatural”, it’s likely that the person to whom he is talking has a different understanding of what “unnatural” means, and may therefore disagree, because they are using different definitions of “unnatural”.

It’s quite reasonable to say that wearing clothes in a hot climate is “unnatural”. It’s also quite reasonable to say that wearing clothes in a hot climate is not “unnatural”. That’s the point (which Gandalf has missed), the word “unnatural” can mean very many different things to different people, so unless you make it clear what your definition is, it’s a poor choice of word to use.

And if you define “unnatural” as “contrary to reason”, why not just use the term “contrary to reason” instead! “Contrary to reason” is a much clearer term than “unnatural”.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:41 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
"Right reason" is a much different concept than "seems reasonable."

That’s what I’m saying. It’s reasonable for a person to believe that wearing clothes in a hot climate is “unnatural”, it’s a very common and legitimate understanding of the meaning of “unnatural”. But the same person can simultaneously believe that wearing clothes in a hot climate is not “contrary to reason”. Therefore, according to a common and legitimate definition of “unnatural”, it does not mean “contrary to reason”.

So, if jack3 is talking to someone and is saying that “all sin is unnatural”, it’s likely that the person to whom he is talking has a different understanding of what “unnatural” means, and may therefore disagree, because they are using different definitions of “unnatural”.

It’s quite reasonable to say that wearing clothes in a hot climate is “unnatural”. It’s also quite reasonable to say that wearing clothes in a hot climate is not “unnatural”. That’s the point (which Gandalf has missed), the word “unnatural” can mean very many different things to different people, so unless you make it clear what your definition is, it’s a poor choice of word to use. And if you define “unnatural” as “contrary to reason”, why not just use the term “contrary to reason” instead! “Contrary to reason” is a much clearer term than “unnatural”.


I didn't miss anything.

You're trying to make "natural" or "unnatural" to merely be something of subjective sentiment or preference.

In terms of ethics "natural" is NOT a matter of mere subjective sentiment or preference. What is "natural" in terms of human ethics is a principle, meaning that it's a condition through which one sees the intelligibility of how the thing is supposed to act according to the ends for which it was designed.

Of course this has all pretty much been explained to you yet you seem determined to either ignore or misunderstand what's being discussed and repeating the same erroneous ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:42 pm 
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I’m just trying to be helpful to jack3, Gandalf.

Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3, I can give you some advice which will save you a lot of trouble, and whether you accept that it's good advice now or you don't accept it until later, you will definitely accept it sooner or later: Stop trying to define whether anything is "natural" or "unnatural", it's a waste of your time, there is no agreed definition of "natural" or "unnatural", and it's irrelevant to whether something is moral or immoral.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:02 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
As homosexual acts are unnatural, are all sins unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Aren't there some cases of homosexuality in animals?

Jack3 wrote:
What I don't get is this:

Ultimately: What is the difference between 'immoral' and 'unnatural'?
Is pornography unnatural?

By sodomy do you mean homosexual acts? Are homosexual actress for dominion or uncontrollable sex drive unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Question: is there any sin that is not unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Are pride, jealousy, robbery, murder etc unnatural? Is unnatural the same as immoral?

Jack3 wrote:
Can you tell me is all sin is unnatural, please?


Jack3, may I ask why you are asking these questions? Do you have some particular reason or purpose in mind?


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:07 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3, may I ask why you are asking these questions? Do you have some particular reason or purpose in mind?


The source of people's morality (as it was with me when I was an atheist) is often not contemplated on a deeper level.

If you are off on one thing, it typically indicates you may have erroneous premises and presuppositions.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:05 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
As homosexual acts are unnatural, are all sins unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Aren't there some cases of homosexuality in animals?

Jack3 wrote:
What I don't get is this:

Ultimately: What is the difference between 'immoral' and 'unnatural'?
Is pornography unnatural?

By sodomy do you mean homosexual acts? Are homosexual actress for dominion or uncontrollable sex drive unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Question: is there any sin that is not unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Are pride, jealousy, robbery, murder etc unnatural? Is unnatural the same as immoral?

Jack3 wrote:
Can you tell me is all sin is unnatural, please?


Jack3, may I ask why you are asking these questions? Do you have some particular reason or purpose in mind?

I wanted to understand what unnatural meant in these contexts.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
As homosexual acts are unnatural, are all sins unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Aren't there some cases of homosexuality in animals?

Jack3 wrote:
What I don't get is this:

Ultimately: What is the difference between 'immoral' and 'unnatural'?
Is pornography unnatural?

By sodomy do you mean homosexual acts? Are homosexual actress for dominion or uncontrollable sex drive unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Question: is there any sin that is not unnatural?

Jack3 wrote:
Are pride, jealousy, robbery, murder etc unnatural? Is unnatural the same as immoral?

Jack3 wrote:
Can you tell me is all sin is unnatural, please?


Jack3, may I ask why you are asking these questions? Do you have some particular reason or purpose in mind?

I wanted to understand what unnatural meant in these contexts.

Yes, but why?

If it’s because you want to debate or persuade someone that sin is “unnatural” and/or that if something is “unnatural” it is sinful (such as “homosexual acts”), then you need to understand that it’s very unlikely that they will have the same understanding of the definition of “unnatural” that you might have.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:39 pm 
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From the dictionary: "1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of events."


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:52 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
From the dictionary: "1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of events."

What’s your definition of “not being in accordance with nature”.

Is a sexual relationship without getting married first “in accordance with nature”?

Is a sexual relationship a year or two under the legal age “in accordance with nature”?

Is having more than one sexual partner “in accordance with nature”?

Is joining a religious order which requires a vow of lifelong celibacy “in accordance with nature”?

Is going for a walk in a forest instead of going to Mass “in accordance with nature”?


By what definition of “in accordance with nature”?


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:55 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
From the dictionary: "1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of events."

What’s your definition of “not being in accordance with nature”.

Is a sexual relationship without getting married first “in accordance with nature”?

Is a sexual relationship a year or two under the legal age “in accordance with nature”?

Is having more than one sexual partner “in accordance with nature”?

Is joining a religious order which requires a vow of lifelong celibacy “in accordance with nature”?

Is going for a walk in a forest instead of going to Mass “in accordance with nature”?


By what definition of “in accordance with nature”?




At this point, it seems to me you won't accept any definition of unnatural. Too bad, because there is one.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:24 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
From the dictionary: "1 : not being in accordance with nature or consistent with a normal course of events."

What’s your definition of “not being in accordance with nature”.

Is a sexual relationship without getting married first “in accordance with nature”?

Is a sexual relationship a year or two under the legal age “in accordance with nature”?

Is having more than one sexual partner “in accordance with nature”?

Is joining a religious order which requires a vow of lifelong celibacy “in accordance with nature”?

Is going for a walk in a forest instead of going to Mass “in accordance with nature”?


By what definition of “in accordance with nature”?




At this point, it seems to me you won't accept any definition of unnatural. Too bad, because there is one.

There isn't just one definition of "unnatural", there are many, and the one you are using may not be the same the definition understood by the person with whom you are communicating, which would be too bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:35 pm 
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You realize that playing this definition game rules out the possibility of any real communication with anyone, ever? They might be using words in a different sense, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:46 pm 
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It appears the goal is not clarity.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:49 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You realize that playing this definition game rules out the possibility of any real communication with anyone, ever? They might be using words in a different sense, after all.

It’s not a game. It’s common sense. My point is that the word “natural” (and “unnatural”) is a particularly slippery and ill-defined word, with different meanings to different people. It allows food and drink advertisers to claim that almost anything is “natural”.

Of course, it’s always good to be clear, if there is any doubt, that the person with whom you are communicating understands the meaning of any important word in the same way as you do.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:14 pm 
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Jack3 asked:
Jack3 wrote:
Is hell the natural fate of man?

Obi’s immediate very first response to Jack3’s question:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
That depends on what you mean by "natural."


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:42 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You realize that playing this definition game rules out the possibility of any real communication with anyone, ever? They might be using words in a different sense, after all.

It’s not a game. It’s common sense. My point is that the word “natural” (and “unnatural”) is a particularly slippery and ill-defined word, with different meanings to different people. It allows food and drink advertisers to claim that almost anything is “natural”.

Of course, it’s always good to be clear, if there is any doubt, that the person with whom you are communicating understands the meaning of any important word in the same way as you do.



You appear to want unnatural to be undefined. Those who write dictionaries prefer precision.


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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:44 pm 
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OK: What if you are wrong about what "love" means? What if St. John, in affirming that God is love, meant something other than you mean by it, so that you are seriously misunderstanding that verse? "Love" is a very slippery and ill-defined word, with different meanings to different people.

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 Post subject: Re: Is all sin unnatural?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:44 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
OK: What if you are wrong about what "love" means? What if St. John, in affirming that God is love, meant something other than you mean by it, so that you are seriously misunderstanding that verse? "Love" is a very slippery and ill-defined word, with different meanings to different people.

Love is indeed a word that means different things to different people.

Jesus commanded us to love, using the same word for love of God and love of neighbour, and the same word that John used in saying "God is love". Therefore what John meant by "love", and what Jesus meant, is obviously something we can all understand.

But, of course, what is meant by "love" can also be misunderstood. That's why so much has been spoken and written clarifying what love. St Paul elaborated on what love is. Pope Benedict issued an encyclical entirely about love. CS Lewis wrote a book called The Four Loves. And so on.

As love is the greatest commandment, it is obviously very important for all of us to understand what it is and what it isn't. Anyone who is sincere, will begin to understand what love is. If it was too difficult for a sincere and humble person to understand, Jesus would not have commanded us to love.

Love is not some abstract concept which is too difficult for most of us to understand, or which we can only understand by reading books. We can all understand love because it is something we can experience. If some philosopher or wannabe theologian tried to tell me that my love for my daughter, and my love for other people in my life, is not really love, I would say I don't care what you call it, I know what it is, because I experience it.

God's love for me and my love for God, and my love, in my limited way, for people in my life, are realities, not mere abstract concepts for philosophers to debate.

If I'm genuinely thirsty, I want the reality of water to satisfy my thirst. I could argue about the definition of water, and try to understand exactly what it is, and deconstruct it's whole meaning, etc, which could be intellectually interesting to some people, but if I am truly thirsty, all I really want to do is drink the water.

I don't have a perfect understanding of what love is. But even with an imperfect, incomplete, partial understanding of what love is, one thing I am certain of:

Love does not mean the total opposite of what I, and people generally, understand love means. It does not mean sending a person you love to suffer endlessly with no possibility of escape, with no offer of help. That's an Orwellian definition of love. By that "definition" of "love", the Nazis could have claimed that their murder of millions of Jews in the gas chambers was an expression of their love for Jews. And even the holocaust was limited, not endless suffering.


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