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 Post subject: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:59 pm 
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Journeyman
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This never got answered in Catholicism 101:

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
A person who dies as a formal heretic is lost.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Material heretic: Wrong but does not know it and would be willing to correct belief if the error were made known.

Formal heretic: Wrong, knows it, does not care.

Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


It's the willing to be corrected that makes a difference.


Dominic wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Heck, I remember discovering at least once during seminary that I was a material heretic.


It all seemed so simple to me in the beginning.

Listen to the Church.

Still the case, but it's a little muggy at times with so many voices.

Denise Dee wrote:
Dominic wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
So "heretics" who believe they are right, who don't know they are wrong, are not "formal heretics"? Surely almost all heretics believe they are right, otherwise what would be the point in disagreeing?


It's the willing to be corrected that makes a difference.

Corrected by whom? Who has the authority to correctly correct someone who is possibly a heretic?

Denise Dee wrote:
Gandalf the Grey wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Corrected by whom? Who has the authority to correctly correct someone who is possibly a heretic?


Matthew 18:15-17
15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.


But who in “the church” should he “hear”? Who in “the church” should be listened to? Who can give the correct answer as to whether someone is a heretic or not?

Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can. 750 Those things are to be believed by divine and catholic faith which are contained in the word of God as it has been written or handed down by tradition, that is, in the single deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and which are at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church, or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, which is manifested by the common adherence of Christ's faithful under the guidance of the sacred magisterium. All are therefore bound to shun any contrary doctrines.


But who decides if a doctrine is a contrary doctrine, that must be shunned, or not? It may be obvious in some cases, but in less obvious cases, if it’s disputed, who decides?

Is it just one person, i.e. the Pope, or is it a committee, and if so, what committee, and does it have to be a unanimous decision or a majority decision or a two-thirds majority, or what?


If it’s not clear cut, if it’s a disputed issue, who has the ability and authority to correctly declare that someone is a heretic so that the heretic will know?


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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:34 pm 
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How do you know things in general? This isn't hard in most cases. Here is an example:

Quote:
If any one says, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

If you say that, you are a heretic.

Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Christian Doctrine provides a slightly-out-of-date survey of doctrinal statements (it was prepared ca. 1950). Here's a list of the terms he (and theologians in general) use to describe the certainty of a doctrinal statement. Denying anything in the first category (de fide) is heretical; denying anything in the second category implicitly denies a defined doctrine and so ends up being heretical as well. Denying things in categories 3 and 4 is foolish and certainly erroneous but not heretical.

Push comes to shove, the Holy See can say if a certain statement or position is heretical, but that doesn't need to happen often.

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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:03 pm 
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Journeyman
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Push comes to shove, the Holy See can say if a certain statement or position is heretical, but that doesn't need to happen often.

Who in “the Holy See can say if a certain statement or position is heretical”? Who has the ultimate authority to declare that a statement or position is heretical, if there is disagreement about it among different bishops and cardinals? Is it the Pope? Is it the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? Is it the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, what happens if they don’t all agree, do they have to all agree? Who has the ultimate power to decide if someone is a heretic or not?


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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:01 am 
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ultimate power (authority) ? i'd say God was a safe answer ... sadly, by then, it's too late for the heretic

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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:14 am 
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Who has the ultimate power to decide if someone is a heretic or not, here on earth, in this life, before it's too late?


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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:46 am 
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It doesn't matter if a person has the formal label of "heretic." What matters is if they reject a doctrine that must be held by divine and Catholic faith.

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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:06 am 
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I mean, if you don't know you're a heretic -- that is, if you believe something that the Church has condemned, or disbelieve something the Church teaches must be held with divine faith, but don't know that the Church teaches this -- then you're not a formal heretic.

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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:11 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It doesn't matter if a person has the formal label of "heretic." What matters is if they reject a doctrine that must be held by divine and Catholic faith.

But if it's not clear, if there is disagreement, if there are different opinions about it, who ultimately can correctly decide if a statement or position is contrary to "doctrine that must be held by divine and Catholic faith"?


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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:22 am 
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The Pope or a council of bishops in union with the Pope. In practice, the CDF can also rule, but its rulings are not irreformable. The same also goes for local bishops.

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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:37 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
The Pope or a council of bishops in union with the Pope. In practice, the CDF can also rule, but its rulings are not irreformable. The same also goes for local bishops.


Is universalism heretical? Or, to ask the same question in a different way, are there any versions of universalism which have not been declared heretical by any Pope or council of bishops in union with the Pope?


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 Post subject: Re: If you’re a heretic, how do you know you’re a heretic?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:42 pm 
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The existence and permanence of Hell is affirmed by the Fourth Lateran Council:

Quote:
[Christ] will come at the end of the world to judge the living and the dead and will render to the reprobate and to the elect according to their works. Who all shall rise with their own bodies which they now have that they may receive according to their merits, whether good or bad, the latter eternal punishment with the devil, the former eternal glory with Christ.


The softer version of universalism, whose most prominent advocate is probably Bishop Barron, says that we may hope that, while Hell exists, no one goes there. I am not sure how this version of universalism deals with the fallen angels. But it has not been clearly condemned, and some think that Pope St. JP II and current Pope Francis thought it possible.

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