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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:19 pm 
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As usual, German is neglected :cry:

Especially Niederdeutsch. A real shame.

Clear evidence of the violence inherent in the system.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:09 pm 
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ingenting wrote:
At 06:00 in this video (of a mass in the EF) some special music is performed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KITr--RXH8w Why would anyone choose what I refer as "concert music" for Mass? Why do some people have this instead of normal church music? I do not hear this as church music at all. Why is this music choosen in stead of normal standard church music? I can see Gregorian chant and hymns as church mudic but this does not sound like "church" at all. Please help me understand this.

Musicam Sacram holds Plainsong to be primary for the Liturgy.

Tra le Sollecitudini (obnoxious Italian name) issued early in the 20th century attempted to reaffirm Chant and tamp down the crazy operatic stuff. It also banned female singers and instruments other than the organ. Mass isn't a concert.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:11 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
As usual, German is neglected :cry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErKTZchVVeE


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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:25 am 
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Mitteldeutsch. Of course. Never Niederdeutsch. A violent system indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:56 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
The issue with this is that - this music isn't being used at the Vatican or in large Cathedrals, so someone has to preserve it and in its proper context. Yeah, it might seem a bit out of place but they are doing a necessary task. When sacred music takes its proper place in the Church again, then smaller churches and little chapels can go back to nothing but plainchant.


This is a good point, but how often should it be done?

Growing the TLM would seem to require more plain chant to better facilitate a laity that is mostly not used to Latin and is too soaked in the routine of vernacular. I base this off no evidence except for my experience and what people tell me. It's mostly something I am guessing at, so I could be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:45 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
The issue with this is that - this music isn't being used at the Vatican or in large Cathedrals, so someone has to preserve it and in its proper context. Yeah, it might seem a bit out of place but they are doing a necessary task. When sacred music takes its proper place in the Church again, then smaller churches and little chapels can go back to nothing but plainchant.


This is a good point, but how often should it be done?

Growing the TLM would seem to require more plain chant to better facilitate a laity that is mostly not used to Latin and is too soaked in the routine of vernacular. I base this off no evidence except for my experience and what people tell me. It's mostly something I am guessing at, so I could be wrong.


ALL of this maybe doesn't directly answer the question specifically, but if the big parishes are going to avoid it, then it's really up to the small churches and chapels to keep it going...

I would say that chant is fairly vital to the growth or resurgence of the TLM.
If low mass is all that ever gets introduced, it either will never grow or it'll just take forever to grow.... or it will be forever banished to that very popular 7:30am time slot. It took me several months of Sundays to get a feel for what was going on at a low mass, and i would say a lot of people don't even have that kind of patience.

this is not to say that chant would help people understand what's going on any better, though, but i think it's something they can latch onto a little bit and be 'more active' with participation, and even a small choir of TWO (that's what we have!) can make a 'high mass' happen for a small church/chapel.

I'm a little bit rusty on what's actually allowed or permitted for a 'sung low mass' (which is sometimes improperly(?) referred to as 'high mass'), but if the point is to kickstart a chanted Mass and work your way up to things for both the choir and the congregation, here's my opinion on what's crucial to get it done:

1. repetition
start with only the asperges, the ordinaries (kyrie, gloria, sanctus, agnus dei) from Mass VIII (de angelis) and credo III
(obviously the vidi aquam replaces the asperges during easter).
the reason you use Mass VIII is because it can be used for any mass throughout the year, and it's very common for that very reason. Credo III is hands down the most common version of the creed.
1.a. you'll need to learn a handful of latin hymns for the offertory and the communion. ... pange lingua (good because it contains the tantum ergo, which needs to be learned for when benediction is done, too), ave verum corpus, o bone jesu (if the choir is ambitious w strong voices), etc. For a "high mass" any hymns during the Mass are required to be in Latin. The processional/recessional can be done in the vernacular, and you can start off with that in mind, but eventually, it's nice to be able to do the whole of everything in Latin.

2. don't bother with chanting the propers early on. just stick with the asperges/ordinaries/credo...

3. frequency goals
least ambitious --- go for the above suggestion for the major holidays of obligation --- Easter, Christmas Day, All Saints Day, Circumcision (traditionally, that's the one of Jan 1... not 'Mary, Mother of God'), the Assumption, and Immaculate Conception.
more ambitious --- do it for one Mass on the one same Sunday every month
even more ambitious --- do it for one Mass on the one same Sunday every two weeks (1st and 3rd, or 2nd and 4th)
most ambitious --- one mass at every sunday of every month
... this feeds back into the notion of 'reptition' ... if it's always the first sunday of every month, then people start getting used to it...

4. if you go with the most ambitious frequency (one mass on every sunday), it honestly should not take more than about 2 to 3 months (liberal estimation) to where everybody can follow along and join in with all those major singing parts.

NOTE: it's important to remember, though, that when this all gets introduced, the priest still has to chant the parts proper to him, and the choir has to chant the responses proper to them. [i'm not a big fan of the so-called 'dialogue mass' where the congregation makes responses, and that might be a rubrical abuse for lack of a better term, but to each their own, and it's not that huge of an abuse (if it even is one), especially when trying to help grow the TLM].

5. once everybody is on board with the ordinaries --- or even before that, depending on the abilities of the choir --- is to have the choir chant the propers. you do NOT require (much less need) an organist for accompaniment for that.

Here is THE book (free download) that needs to be used at first, and it covers pretty much everything you could ever want throughout the liturgical year ... there's even a requiem mass rendering in that book:
https://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/rossini_propers.pdf

DO NOT USE THE LIBER USUALIS FOR THE PROPERS WHEN FIRST STARTING OUT.

So the link I just gave is sometimes simply referred to as "The Rossini" and it is really, really good for choirs of all sizes (we usually only have TWO of us in our choir). The tones are highly repetitive and very simple (and relatively short). The only catch is finding your groove of when to actually sing each proper, and each response through the Mass, and which tone for 'amen' to use at different places (there are two different tones specific to different parts of the Mass).... little things like that will just come with time (and study to learn the way it's actually supposed to be done).

6. if you can get all of that together, then you can have a 'complete' sung mass. (obviously none of the congregation can join in with the propers, and they're not supposed to... but you can have a nicely done mass using the Rossini.)

7. once everybody (in choir) gets really, really comfortable with the Rossini, THEN you can start to break out the Liber Usualis, and then follow the same kind of regimen as when introducing the Rossini.
Go for the #1 most major holy day first ---- Easter. Easy to remember its page in the Liber -- page 777.
Next, add Christmas ---- there are three that day proper to the time of the day, and if anybody has pull as to when to do the TLM that day, I'd recommend 'Mass during the Day' starting on page 308.
What you add after those two is up to you... these are all pretty good to add to the repertoire: pentecost (whit sunday), christ the king, the parish's saint's day, epiphany, circumcision, immaculate conception, assumption, etc.

8. Again, you can still use Mass VIII and Credo III for everything. When you get tired or worn out on those two, then I'd recommend learning new ordinaries in this order: Mass I (for use in paschal time), Mass XI (for sundays throughout the year), Mass XVII (sundays in advent and lent), then Mass IX (marian feasts)... BUT be advised that is NOT required that you use the specific Mass assigned to the specific time of season, although it may be more proper (by simple sound/tone) to do so. During Lent, Mass VIII can be used, but it might be a little too 'upbeat' for the season, for example. You can technically also mix-and-match ordinaries from different Masses... If you really wanted to do Orbis factor (Mass XI) --- which has a nice Kyrie --- but you're not good at or don't really care for the Mass XI gloria, it's permitted to switch it out with a gloria from one of the other Masses (but again, use good judgment for what 'sounds' proper for the day). Note the dates of when the ordinaries were written for each mass. Mass XI's kyrie is recorded as written sometime between the 14th and 16th centuries, while it's gloria is recorded as written in the 10th century, it's sanctus was written in the 11th century, and its agnus dei was written in the 14th.

You will get sick of Credo III.... so add Credo I because it is the most ancient (11th century), although it's fairly boring but has a nice finish.... if you want to add another one after that, go for Credo IV. .... forget Credo II altogether. FWIW, we only use Credo I at Easter and Pentecost. Anytime else, we're using Credo III, and it's so common now that I can actually hear a lot of the congregation singing that one along with us.

ALSO a quick note ---- re: the propers for a sung low mass when you're introducing use of the Liber... i don't know if it's technically correct but i know we've done it before (FWIW), .... you can mix-and-match the Liber's propers with the Rossini propers ... I wouldn't try to make it a habit, but if you're going to struggle with anything, it'll be a gradual from the Liber, and WHEN that happens (because it will) and confidence is low about doing it well from the Liber, then substitute that part from the Rossini. It's better do a simple thing well, than to go into a complete train wreck and distract from the Mass itself. Sometimes you may want to use the Rossini just because a gradual is insanely long, and that's really true if you've got a really small choir.... there's one common mass (I forget which one) that has 17 'verses' to it in the Rossini, so you might imagine how long it is in the Liber.

The thing about the Liber is that the more you use it, the more acclimated you get to it because you start to recognize several common tones throughout. The gradual for day X will probably have parts that sound like they were grabbed from the gradual for days Y, Z, A, and B, for example. Some things, though, can be really queer. This is why it is best and easiest to find recordings on YouTube .... or if you splurge some $300 bucks or so, you can buy the CD collection of the entire Liber chanted by French monks, then rip the CDs and burn one for a particular mass that you need to learn while you're driving and stuff.

8. Once everybody gets really comfortable with all that, then --- assuming the priest is on board with it --- learn the Requiem Mass (first) and the Nuptial Mass (a distant second), because once you learn the Requiem Mass, then you can use that on All Souls' Day as well. Depending on the size of the parish, you could have a funeral easily at least once a month or more, and this is why the Requiem Mass absolutely ought to be in every choir's wheelhouse.

9. Once everybody's good with that, and depending on the size and capability of the choir, then you could mess around with some polyphony, but quite frankly, after dealing with using the Liber for a full Mass (especially if there's a lengthy gradual or a tract), along with all the ordinaries and stuff, you'd be happy to do a simple hymn for the appropriate places and forego the whole polyphony thing.

All of that probably doesn't take as much time to put into action as it may seem. A lot depends on the size and capabilities (and dedication) of the choir...

... but the absolute #1 most important thing before ANY of the above happens is to get the head pastor involved, or whichever priest would be tasked with offering the TLM. Keep in mind that most are not at all trained for it, and so not only are you asking them to do the proper rubrics AND the proper Latin, you'd be asking them to learn to chant their stuff as well. If you get a priest who isn't down for all that, then at best, you're going to be stuck with low masses. ...and then i suppose it might be allowable to do something like the communion hymn in polyphony, but it might sound a bit out of place, if not overpowering, for a low mass --- and that's presuming the rubrics even allow for polyphony during a low mass.

sorry for the massive word dump on this...


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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:35 am 
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I think plainchant should probably be the standard for the typical parish Sunday sung Mass. That shouldn't rule out sacred polyphony.

FYI, Tra le sollicitudini did not "ban" all instruments other than the organ (it did ban the piano and other "noisy or frivolous instruments"):

Quote:
15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed [emphasis mine], but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the Caeremoniale Episcoporum.
...
20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.


And in any case these restrictions were loosened by Musicae Sacrae (Pius XII, 1955):

Quote:
58. These norms must be applied to the use of the organ or other musical instruments. Among the musical instruments that have a place in church the organ rightly holds the principal position, since it is especially fitted for the sacred chants and sacred rites. It adds a wonderful splendor and a special magnificence to the ceremonies of the Church. It moves the souls of the faithful by the grandeur and sweetness of its tones. It gives minds an almost heavenly joy and it lifts them up powerfully to God and to higher things.

59. Besides the organ, other instruments can be called upon to give great help in attaining the lofty purpose of sacred music, so long as they play nothing profane nothing clamorous or strident and nothing at variance with the sacred services or the dignity of the place. Among these the violin and other musical instruments that use the bow are outstanding because, when they are played by themselves or with other stringed instruments or with the organ, they express the joyous and sad sentiments of the soul with an indescribable power [my emphasis]. Moreover, in the encyclical Mediator Dei, We Ourselves gave detailed and clear regulations concerning the musical modes that are to be admitted into the worship of the Catholic religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:52 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I think plainchant should probably be the standard for the typical parish Sunday sung Mass. That shouldn't rule out sacred polyphony.


plainchant should be the standard, but some smaller churches/choirs might only be able to manage psalmtone at best.
some might be able to do plainchant, but not have an organist, and it's perfectly fine to do plainchant unaccompanied (albeit, it doesn't sound as full... or as nice).

the only thing that should rule out polyphony is the capability (or desire) of the choir to do it properly.

i remember when +tissier did confirmations in nashville several years ago, and i traveled to be in the choir. there ended up being 5 of us total, in a small chapel with probably ehhh... i'd say 20-30 confirmands. we somehow managed to do one polyphonic hymn only because 2 others from kansas city showed up and knew the polyphonic parts... not to mention, they had really good voices. so rare is it to have polyphony in such a small setting that +tissier himself remarked on it.

now.. polyphony in kansas city (st. mary's, anyway) which has a massive SSPX population, is probably par for the course at every mass on sunday.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:01 pm 
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tAnGo wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I think plainchant should probably be the standard for the typical parish Sunday sung Mass. That shouldn't rule out sacred polyphony.


plainchant should be the standard, but some smaller churches/choirs might only be able to manage psalmtone at best.

Well, yeah, maybe for the Propers, but the Ordinary should be chanted.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is this music chosen for a Catholic Mass?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:24 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
tAnGo wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I think plainchant should probably be the standard for the typical parish Sunday sung Mass. That shouldn't rule out sacred polyphony.


plainchant should be the standard, but some smaller churches/choirs might only be able to manage psalmtone at best.

Well, yeah, maybe for the Propers, but the Ordinary should be chanted.


oh... 100% agree. I intended to imply that.

I actually have never heard of or seen any ordinaries in psalmtone.

the closest is maybe a kyrie such as with a litany... but that's not quite the same subject matter.


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