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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:33 pm 
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He could have told them that the draft working document was unacceptable. He could have told them that anything resembling idolatry was unacceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:10 am 
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Do you really think Francis is encouraging idolatry or that he condones it? Really?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:19 am 
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To interject myself into this exchange... for the ten millionth time, I don't know where Francis is coming from in certain areas.

Whether or not Francis is an idolator, which I'm sure he isn't, he participates in or allows or condones actions which could be construed as contrary to current Catholic teaching and practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:08 am 
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theJack wrote:
Do you really think Francis is encouraging idolatry or that he condones it? Really?


Exactly when did he condemn it? Was that before or after he defended placing the idols in a church in Rome and condemned their removal by the laity?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:17 am 
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Amon98 wrote:
Having done as you say "what Pope Francis intended," what will be the outcome? You apparently know.


I apply a very simple calculus here see if you can follow me:

The pope handpicked every single person who was at the Synod

As the Synod worked they came under attack for the things they were doing the pope responded to this criticism by calling the critics Pharisees hypocrites and phony Catholics

As the synod completes its work it starts producing its report the Pope says absolutely nothing as controversial Adam after controversial items added to it

Pagan idols are placed in churches around Rome the Pope says absolutely nothing whatsoever about it but he becomes blistering in his attacks on the people who remove them

Gee, I don't know but I think that when someone handpicks the members of a commission, and defense that work as it comes under attack and then issues no protest when its work is done that sounds an awful lot like consent

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:56 am 
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I suppose Scalfari held him at gunpoint to get 5 interviews. Regardless of accuracy of reporting... Heck especially if they are inaccurate... He chose to do it. Not once, twice or even thrice.

I suppose mocking young priests isn't his fault.

Oh, and he must not have written the Bueños Aires letter.


To be sure, there has been a virtual cowardice in applying the Church's coercive power in punishing those, especially in the hierarchy, who have not kept the faith. (That one who is baptized may be coerced to keep the faith is a dogma, and, though weakened, still a principle of canon law)

The idea of the powerless pope may have merit for some things... But only so much (including in previous reigns). Francis has explicitly rejected the main cause of inaction of Paul VI, fear of schism. Of course, it wasn't the same group he feared cementing a schism!

The pope is supposed to be a leader and is supposed to confirm the brethren. If he truly is as inept as Amon98 claims, he should resign as pope Celestine did.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:16 am 
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theJack wrote:
Do you really think Francis is encouraging idolatry or that he condones it? Really?

You'll note I didn't use either word. I said, "countenanced," and if you have a better word for what went on at the synod, I'd love to hear it.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:26 am 
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But if you like, yes, I think he condoned it.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:52 am 
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I just read an article that the Pope is considering a category of ecological sin to be added to the Catechism.

Now we have sin against the earth?

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Last edited by Highlander on Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:47 am 
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Highlander wrote:
I just read an article that the Pope is considering a category of ecological sin to be added to the Catechism.

Now we have since against the earth?


"Mother" Earth.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:52 pm 
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Highlander wrote:
I just read an article that the Pope is considering a category of ecological sin to be added to the Catechism.

Now we have since against the earth?


I could see where this would actually make sense are you throwing your garbage on the ground rather than disposing of it properly? Are you dumping toxic chemicals into the water supply rather than disposing of it properly? Are you killing animals for no good reason whatsoever just for the fun of it not for food or anyting?
I think these kinds of things are sinful. Now if the category is going to include things like having too big of a carbon footprint or not recycling enough and other vague nebulous notions then that is indeed worthy of ridicule.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:32 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
He could have told them that the draft working document was unacceptable. He could have told them that anything resembling idolatry was unacceptable.



Respectfully, if Pope Francis did things wrong, write all of that down along with your recommendations and send them to the Vatican.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:34 pm 
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Doom wrote:
theJack wrote:
Do you really think Francis is encouraging idolatry or that he condones it? Really?


Exactly when did he condemn it? Was that before or after he defended placing the idols in a church in Rome and condemned their removal by the laity?



Please send a message to Pope Francis with your comments and observations. I doubt he reads anything here.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:36 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
I suppose Scalfari held him at gunpoint to get 5 interviews. Regardless of accuracy of reporting... Heck especially if they are inaccurate... He chose to do it. Not once, twice or even thrice.

I suppose mocking young priests isn't his fault.

Oh, and he must not have written the Bueños Aires letter.


To be sure, there has been a virtual cowardice in applying the Church's coercive power in punishing those, especially in the hierarchy, who have not kept the faith. (That one who is baptized may be coerced to keep the faith is a dogma, and, though weakened, still a principle of canon law)

The idea of the powerless pope may have merit for some things... But only so much (including in previous reigns). Francis has explicitly rejected the main cause of inaction of Paul VI, fear of schism. Of course, it wasn't the same group he feared cementing a schism!

The pope is supposed to be a leader and is supposed to confirm the brethren. If he truly is as inept as Amon98 claims, he should resign as pope Celestine did.



Please show me where I used the word inept. As I've suggested to others, contact the Pope with your concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
As I've suggested to others, contact the Pope with your concerns.


In case you wandered in here unaware, this is a discussion board, and this is a discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:03 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
The Amazon Synod was pushed off the rails by those who wanted to make changes.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/ca ... ult-to-god

And who is ultimately responsible for that? Who appointed bishops who pushed things "off the rails" to the Synod?

Look, I get it, imposing order and discipline on the Church's hierarchy is not easy. Pope St. Gregory VII died in exile in no small part because of his efforts to reform the Church and put an end to simony. But this is what the Pope is called to do -- to be exiled or even martyred in defense of the Church's doctrine.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:06 pm 
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Amon98 wrote:
OK. I'll give it a go. Pope Francis is limited in action. I wonder if anyone posting in this topic gets that. Generally, to avoid scandal, troublemakers are met with privately. Any problems or issues are discussed and the appropriate words are said, in this case, by the Pope. In the case of the Amazon Synod, word leaked out - purposely, it seems - that things were being discussed that Cardinal Sarah called an "insult to God" but that were unconfirmed while it was going on. Now the final Synod document has been handed in, and there is hand-wringing and anxiety from some Catholics because "did anybody see this coming" to, "Oh my God. Now it's going to happen."

It's not going to happen. Pope Francis has the final say. And it is unlikely that any words, or letters from him, that may be heard or received by any who voted for certain - outside their mandate - changes will get published.

I will say, the sky is not falling. And I have every reason to believe Pope Francis will take appropriate steps with the dissenters/troublemakers.

St. Thomas says that respect of persons is a vice opposed to the virtue of justice. What is meeting with troublemakers privately "to avoid scandal" (assuming this was even done) rather than correct them publicly (public heterodoxy should be corrected publicly!) but respect of persons?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:19 pm 
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I think I have said all I can usefully say on this subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
Amon98 wrote:
The Amazon Synod was pushed off the rails by those who wanted to make changes.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/ca ... ult-to-god

And who is ultimately responsible for that? Who appointed bishops who pushed things "off the rails" to the Synod?

Look, I get it, imposing order and discipline on the Church's hierarchy is not easy. Pope St. Gregory VII died in exile in no small part because of his efforts to reform the Church and put an end to simony. But this is what the Pope is called to do -- to be exiled or even martyred in defense of the Church's doctrine.



Respectfully, Pope Francis has known, named critics, so why not contact him and encourage him to do as you wrote?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Pope Francis a bad pope?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Another who uses ad infinitum as their basis for logic?

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