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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
Notnew wrote:
EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
... He left the building about 5 or 6 pages ago ...

You did see his update 3 pages ago - near the bottom of pg 4?
Just wondering ...


It is a grace-filled update!


Yep I did, thanks.
So many pages.
So little time.
:)

The salient point in my post, I think, Is that Xavier's thoughts and reactions are not out of the norm in the current environment created by CC leadership.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
Alexandros, of course anyone can believe a Pope is wrong. Pope Benedict wrote a book and said "feel free to disagree". But there are also teachings Catholics are supposed to assent to. I'm very confused as to which teachings a Catholic can disagree with and which teachings a Catholic must accept.

I have a question for you: If a minority of priests, bishops and cardinals disagree with a teaching of the Pope, how is an ordinary average Catholic supposed to decide which is the right teaching?




Here is a simplified guide (anyone can correct me here if I mess this up):

Infallible teachings on faith and morals

1. statements that have language such as “declare, decree” and that are intended for the entire Church to believe.

Examples:

Pius XII wrote:
… by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.


Pope Boniface VIII wrote:
Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.


2. Canons of Ecumenical councils:

Examples:

Trent wrote:
If any one shall say, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Orders, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament;. let him be anathema.


Vatican I wrote:
If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.


3. The next level we have the constant teaching in the Church.

Example:

Paul VI wrote:
Nonetheless the Church, calling men back to the observance of the norms of the natural law, as interpreted by their constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marriage act (quilibet matrimonii usus) must remain open to the transmission of life.




4. The next level down is what is found in encyclicals, exhortations, catechisms, etc.; unless they use specific language to bind the Church found above.

At this level, assent should be given, unless one knows for sure it contradicts 1-3. If one is unsure, then give assent and interpret it through the traditional sense found in 1-3.


If someone takes a confusing teaching from the current Pope and utilizes the above, they should be able to find the truth. I don’t see how someone who is aware of something that is confusing does not have some ability to do this, or consult someone who can do this – at least on the major issues. And by “major,” I mean that items that could more or less turn us into heretics if we get them wrong (examples 1-3).

If the person still cannot find an answer, then the subject matter is usually something more obscure and not as weighty – i.e. it was not previously formally defined, and not so easily found in the constant teaching. If that is the case, then I would not worry about that particular issue and do you best (nothing is perfect).

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:00 pm 
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One of these days wrote:
Francis is not the pope he is the antipope, Benedict XVI is the one true Pope. His resignation was a partial abdication (his words). Canon Law does not accept his words...very involved, but we've had antipopes previously....

this is interesting

i never knew Pope B said that, that his was a partial abdication

I would love to believe that. Pope B never said anything that I can readily recall that.. disturbed..


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:39 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
One of these days wrote:
Francis is not the pope he is the antipope, Benedict XVI is the one true Pope. His resignation was a partial abdication (his words). Canon Law does not accept his words...very involved, but we've had antipopes previously....

this is interesting

i never knew Pope B said that, that his was a partial abdication

I would love to believe that. Pope B never said anything that I can readily recall that.. disturbed..


Pope Benedict XVI did not say that.

A confused person said that about Francis and Benedict. I don't have time now to go back and find it in this thread. Please be aware that there are a lot of strange blogs that like to appear Catholic, and discernment is needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:21 pm 
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There is no such thing as a partial resignation (and 'resignation' is the correct term, not 'abdication'), either the pope resigns or he does not, there is no middle path.

You can't 'partially' quit being Pope any more than you can 'partially' quit any other job, either you're still working at that job (perhaps at reduced hours) or you're not. If you're not working there, you resigned, if you're still working there, even at reduced hours, then you have not resigned.

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Excelsior!


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:49 am 
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Intelligent links re op
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2016/12 ... tiber.html
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... es_20.html

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Saw this today and couldn't resist sharing:


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Dorothy B. wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
One of these days wrote:
Francis is not the pope he is the antipope, Benedict XVI is the one true Pope. His resignation was a partial abdication (his words). Canon Law does not accept his words...very involved, but we've had antipopes previously....

this is interesting

i never knew Pope B said that, that his was a partial abdication

I would love to believe that. Pope B never said anything that I can readily recall that.. disturbed..


Pope Benedict XVI did not say that.

A confused person said that about Francis and Benedict. I don't have time now to go back and find it in this thread. Please be aware that there are a lot of strange blogs that like to appear Catholic, and discernment is needed.

ok. you have not proven that Pope B didn't say that

but it is highly important that I realize all over again, that I can't beleive everything I read .. anywhere


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:56 pm 
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Quote:
ok. you have not proven that Pope B didn't say that

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:32 pm 
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What saddens me is that there are many people in this country who believe and trust the words of the President of the United States more than they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and believe and trust the words of the Holy Father.

My wife hasn't been to Mass in years, partially because of the "war of words" between Pope Francis and Donald Trump and his minions at Fox News.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:30 pm 
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LeroyJethroGibbs wrote:
What saddens me is that there are many people in this country who believe and trust the words of the President of the United States more than they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and believe and trust the words of the Holy Father.

My wife hasn't been to Mass in years, partially because of the "war of words" between Pope Francis and Donald Trump and his minions at Fox News.

i am troubled by what you say. Are you saying that supporting a Christian-friendly president like Trump is NOT following Jesus?

Trump does all or at least most things a Christian can expect a Christian president to do. He puts conservative Justices on the Sup Ct, he speaks out against abortion and changes the laws, takes $$ away from PLanned Parenthood and etc.. etc

The pope, on the other hand, says things like (my words): re-married, invalidly divorced "Catholics" can receive Holy Communion.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:19 pm 
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Sometimes Christianity amounts to more than putting the right people on the SCOTUS.

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:57 pm 
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ForeverFaithful wrote:
Sometimes Christianity amounts to more than putting the right people on the SCOTUS.

Wrong. The Bible clearly says, "For God so loved the world that He gave it Ronald Reagan, Donald Trump, and the Republicans, so that whosoever votes for them shall not perish, but have everlasting life." -1 Hannity 3:16

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Oh you Americans

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
Tiber swim team '13


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:54 pm 
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then there is the parable of the 2 sons

the father asked one of them to go out into the vineyard and work

he said No

he asked the 2nd son

that son said Yes

but the first one changed his mind and went out to work after all while the one who had said Yes, also changed his mind and did not do what he promised.

and Jesus asked: Which one of those did the will of the Father?


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Please leave the politics out of this forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:35 am 
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To the OP, I have no issues with the Church Spiritual. The Church temporal, however. As to the Pope, I have misgivings.

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There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:19 am 
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Highlander wrote:
To the OP, I have no issues with the Church Spiritual. The Church temporal, however. As to the Pope, I have misgivings.

he seems to be doing better of late

i like the w ay he went after (finallY) those involved in the priest sex scandal

I think secret societies have taken over the Church.. which societies apparently hold to the notion that man should not be inhibited sexually or whatever... ? I don't know.. just a thought


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:49 pm 
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theJack wrote:
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Sometimes Christianity amounts to more than putting the right people on the SCOTUS.

Wrong. The Bible clearly says, "For God so loved the world that He gave it Ronald Reagan, Donald Trump, and the Republicans, so that whosoever votes for them shall not perish, but have everlasting life." -1 Hannity 3:16


:)


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 Post subject: Re: Questioning Catholicism because of Pope Francis
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:50 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
LeroyJethroGibbs wrote:
What saddens me is that there are many people in this country who believe and trust the words of the President of the United States more than they follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and believe and trust the words of the Holy Father.

My wife hasn't been to Mass in years, partially because of the "war of words" between Pope Francis and Donald Trump and his minions at Fox News.

i am troubled by what you say. Are you saying that supporting a Christian-friendly president like Trump is NOT following Jesus?

Trump does all or at least most things a Christian can expect a Christian president to do. He puts conservative Justices on the Sup Ct, he speaks out against abortion and changes the laws, takes $$ away from PLanned Parenthood and etc.. etc

The pope, on the other hand, says things like (my words): re-married, invalidly divorced "Catholics" can receive Holy Communion.


If you think Donald Trump, as President, or in his previous incarnation as a private citizen, follows the teachings of Jesus Christ, I guess we are at an impass.


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