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 Post subject: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:43 am 
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This might sound basic, but I don't know:

1. What did Jesus' death accomplish?

2. If Jesus defeated sin and death, why do people still go to Hell?

3. Was it hypothetically possible for God to redeem mankind without the Incarnation at all (by merely willing it)?

4. How can the Crucifixion affect sins committed by persons born later?

These questions were planted in me when a Christian explained these in a naturalist* way (like a mother giving up her mattress in solidarity with her son living in poor conditions abroad). I instinctively knew this was wrong*, but I couldn't figure out what the right thing was.

*I mean that this explanation fails to posit Christ as a true Saviour who conquered sin and death.

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Last edited by Jack3 on Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:42 am 
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I want to be clear about my hope to see a distinctly Catholic answer and so my deferral on addressing your post directly. With that said, I do think it is worth noting that your question seems to look for something of a necessary causal relationship between the Cross and sin. For example, you ask if it is "possible" for God to forgive sins without the crucifixion, and you talk of "naturalist" explanations for dealing with the issues you raise (which, again, seem to imply an either/or). If that's on track, I'd suggest thinking about the crucifixion and its related elements in terms of fittingness rather than causal necessity. That way, it doesn't matter if there are any other logically possible explanations. What matters is, what has God chosen to demonstrate using this particular way (i.e., the Crucifixion of His only Son). Maybe a bit ironically, trying to argue these things from necessary causal relations rather than fittingness actually takes them out of the realm of faith entirely (insofar as they would no longer be based on articles of faith); and while there are great and wonderful things that can be known by reason, I would think that those related to God's actual plan of salvation would not be among them.

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:24 am 
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theJack wrote:
your question seems to look for something of a necessary causal relationship between the Cross and sin. For example, you ask if it is "possible" for God to forgive sins without the crucifixion... Maybe a bit ironically, trying to argue these things from necessary causal relations rather than fittingness actually takes them out of the realm of faith entirely (insofar as they would no longer be based on articles of faith); and while there are great and wonderful things that can be known by reason, I would think that those related to God's actual plan of salvation would not be among them.

I do not see myself presuming necessary causal relationships. Questions #1, #2 and #4 are interrelated and the spirit behind them conveys what I have in my heart to ask.

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What matters is, what has God chosen to demonstrate using this particular way (i.e., the Crucifixion of His only Son).

What I'm looking for is not what God demonstrated; but what happened through it, how it worked, what effect it had, in what way and to what extent sin was defeated.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:54 am 
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1) Through His passion, death, and resurrection (all parts of one act), Jesus reconciled sinners to the Father.
2) Not everyone takes advantage of that victory.
3) Yes.
4) I'm not sure I see the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:19 pm 
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In light of (3) does this distinction make sense

(a) Without Christ's death, all were indiscriminately under the power of death so Hades was not filled to the glory of God but just as a fact of human life

(b) On account of Christ's death, only those who reject God will be lost. Hell is now a place where the damned go so that God might be glorified in their punishment.

So Christ's victory in 3 can be understand as the movement from (a) to (b) in the order of Divine Justice. Does this make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:55 pm 
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(a) is incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:28 pm 
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Now that I'm on a computer:

All ad extra actions of God are to make manifest His glory. Therefore, the state of departed souls before the Atonement is to His glory.

I'm also concerned that the overall thesis sounds as if God's justice was not realized before the Atonement.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:10 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
1) Through His passion, death, and resurrection (all parts of one act), Jesus reconciled sinners to the Father.

What does the word reconciled mean here? Does the fact that this victory has to be taken advantage of, imply some deficiency in the victory?

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Now that I'm on a computer:

All ad extra actions of God are to make manifest His glory. Therefore, the state of departed souls before the Atonement is to His glory.

I'm also concerned that the overall thesis sounds as if God's justice was not realized before the Atonement.


What does ad extra mean?

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In Te speravi, Domine: dixi: Tu es Deus meus, in manibus Tuis tempora mea.
Have mercy on me, O Lord, for I am weak: heal me, O Lord, for my bones are troubled.
All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out.
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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:51 pm 
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Outside of the Godhead.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:58 pm 
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"Redemption" is the undoing of the effects of Original Sin and of actual sins.

The victory is not deficient. It accomplished all that it was intended to do. The deficiency is in our failure to make use of what was given to us.

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:00 pm 
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Thank you.

Can you use an analogy please?

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:43 pm 
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Death of Jesus Christ means eternal life for us.

:D

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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:55 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Thank you.

Can you use an analogy please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

How has no one posted this yet :verymad: :soap:

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Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


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 Post subject: Re: What did Jesus' death accomplish?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:05 pm 
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I blame gherkin.

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