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 Post subject: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:59 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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Lying is intrinsic evil and may not be done for any purpose.

Is spying/espionage/double-agent intrinsic evil?

Are scholarly publishing sting operations (eg the Sokal affair) intrinsic evil?

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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:34 am 
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I don't see how you could possibly call it 'lying', they intentionally wrote the most absurd articles with the most asinine claims they could think of to test the quality of the 'peer review' of those journals, and, to the surprise of no one, found that the 'quality control' and 'peer review' were worthless. There is absolutely no 'deception' involved, the authors used their real names and submitted to real journals. If those journals had been anything other than useless, the articles would have been rejected.

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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:22 am 
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Some Poor Bibliophile
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Doom wrote:
I don't see how you could possibly call it 'lying', they intentionally wrote the most absurd articles with the most asinine claims they could think of to test the quality of the 'peer review' of those journals, and, to the surprise of no one, found that the 'quality control' and 'peer review' were worthless. There is absolutely no 'deception' involved, the authors used their real names and submitted to real journals. If those journals had been anything other than useless, the articles would have been rejected.


I agree with Doom.

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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:40 am 
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I have an old set of moral theology books (similar to Jone) but by Koch and Preuss and they have a section about lying that discusses spying and other actions of war that cause deception. They state that it can be done, but give little detail about how to do so without direct lying. So, yes, it seems that moral theologians think spying and such can be done, but I am sure there are certain precautions one would probably have to take so as to not cross the line into lying.

FJ

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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:47 am 
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forumjunkie wrote:
I have an old set of moral theology books (similar to Jone) but by Koch and Preuss and they have a section about lying that discusses spying and other actions of war that cause deception. They state that it can be done, but give little detail about how to do so without direct lying. So, yes, it seems that moral theologians think spying and such can be done, but I am sure there are certain precautions one would probably have to take so as to not cross the line into lying.

FJ



Reminds me of the discussion I've seen (and marveled over) re: the morality of "lying" just before the battle of Midway, when a mendacious message was sent, that the Japanese were intended to intercept, and act upon, allowing a firm determination that Midway was the target of their next advance.

Worked right nicely. Good.

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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:37 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
Lying is intrinsic evil and may not be done for any purpose.

If you could prevent an abortion by lying, would you?


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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:43 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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No. Ends do not justify the means.

Quote:
The Catholic Church holds it better for the sun and moon to drop from heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die of starvation in extremest agony, as far as temporal affliction goes, than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin, should tell one willful untruth, or should steal one poor farthing without excuse.
John Henry Newman
Certain Difficulties Felt by Anglicans in Catholic Teaching, Volume 1, Lecture 8



Cath101 is for answers to questions in light of Catholic teaching, not for debate. Let's not hijack this thread. I hope for more discussion on the op.

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:38 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
No. Ends do not justify the means.

Quote:
The Catholic Church holds it better for the sun and moon to drop from heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die of starvation in extremest agony, as far as temporal affliction goes, than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin, should tell one willful untruth, or should steal one poor farthing without excuse.
John Henry Newman
Certain Difficulties Felt by Anglicans in Catholic Teaching, Volume 1, Lecture 8



Cath101 is for answers to questions in light of Catholic teaching, not for debate. Let's not hijack this thread. I hope for more discussion on the op.



I think you are right. I will refrain from commenting further, unless I spot a dubious assertion of fact.

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Save that the sky grows darker yet
And the sea rises higher."


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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:49 pm 
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I was addressing DD.

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-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:53 pm 
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F/J said about all there is to say on the espionage topic.

Sokal et al. didn't lie.

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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:39 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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1. I can't conceive how a spy can't lie. Should a spy equivocate in ambiguous language but never lie? Spying involves deception per se.

2. Sokal's submission contained statements he knew to be untrue. Isn't that a lie?

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:44 pm 
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What did he say that was untrue?

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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:53 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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I was guessing so.I have not read it. If it were not untrue, there wouldn't be any controversy, would there?

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"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


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 Post subject: Re: Lying, spying, and the Sokal sting
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:42 pm 
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He submitted complete gibberish. He never claimed it wasn't.

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