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 Post subject: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:54 pm 
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OK, so I’ve got another moral question that has often been discussed here. Regarding the use of marijuana:

1) For certain medical conditions (let’s say cancer) its use is acceptable so as to minimize the treatments side effects, minimize the suffering caused from the disease, or even treat the disease itself. Correct?
2) Can be used recreationally, and is thus morally acceptable, if the amount consumed doesn’t result in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements (e.g., is not in a drunken condition but merely “tipsy” similar to having a couple of drinks of alcohol). Correct?
3) Cannot be used recreationally, and is thus not morally licit, if the amount consumed results in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements and not for the treatment of a condition (e.g., in a drunken condition similar to over use of alcohol). Correct?

For the record, I do not use the stuff. :fyi:

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:13 am 
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I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:29 am 
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I would agree with this caveat:

Currently use of marijuana is a federal crime. Until it is legal, one is breaking the law regardless of the State/local decriminalization.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
2) Can be used recreationally, and is thus morally acceptable, if the amount consumed doesn’t result in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements (e.g., is not in a drunken condition but merely “tipsy” similar to having a couple of drinks of alcohol). Correct?

I don't believe this condition can be met.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:21 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
2) Can be used recreationally, and is thus morally acceptable, if the amount consumed doesn’t result in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements (e.g., is not in a drunken condition but merely “tipsy” similar to having a couple of drinks of alcohol). Correct?

I don't believe this condition can be met.


Misspent youth.... it can be met

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

I agree wholeheartedly. Personally, I believe that use of marijuana cannot be justified under any circumstances. I do not believe it has any medicinal benefit and there is no argument that will convince me otherwise. I’ve seen too many lives lost or ruined by the stuff. I’ll fight it with every fiber of my being until the day I die.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:48 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Currently use of marijuana is a federal crime. Until it is legal, one is breaking the law regardless of the State/local decriminalization.

Not necessarily

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:23 pm 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
Peregrinator wrote:
I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

I agree wholeheartedly. Personally, I believe that use of marijuana cannot be justified under any circumstances. I do not believe it has any medicinal benefit and there is no argument that will convince me otherwise. I’ve seen too many lives lost or ruined by the stuff. I’ll fight it with every fiber of my being until the day I die.


I used to be in your camp here. However, I know two people with MS who didn't use the stuff nor wanted too. They do now and claim its the only thing that actually helps them when they have an "episode." However, they only use it when they are going through an attack.

I also know at least one cancer patient, who never used the stuff or wanted to (he was a District Attorney of a major county around Atlanta) and the only relief he could get from his throat cancer was too eat marijuana laced brownies.

While antidotal, I have seen first hand that it helps some people.

That being said, I'm not trying to start a debate. Rather, I'm trying to understand the moral implications. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:24 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Peetem wrote:
2) Can be used recreationally, and is thus morally acceptable, if the amount consumed doesn’t result in a person losing their ability to make proper moral judgements (e.g., is not in a drunken condition but merely “tipsy” similar to having a couple of drinks of alcohol). Correct?

I don't believe this condition can be met.


Misspent youth.... it can be met


So if this condition can be met, would its use thus be acceptable?

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:32 pm 
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I think the premise is wrong. That moderate use of a drug leaves one merely "tipsy" and doesn't impair judgment does not at all imply that its non-therapeutic use can be justified.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:15 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I think the premise is wrong. That moderate use of a drug leaves one merely "tipsy" and doesn't impair judgment does not at all imply that its non-therapeutic use can be justified.


Got it.

So why then is “tipsy” using alcohol OK and “tipsy” not OK using marijuana?

Again, not looking to debate...trying to understand the distinction.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:11 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
I would agree with this caveat:

Currently use of marijuana is a federal crime. Until it is legal, one is breaking the law regardless of the State/local decriminalization.


It's not use that's illegal, it's possession and distribution. And even then they have to prove a federal nexus to prosecute.

As for morality, you may want to use the search feature, there's interesting discussion on this board from the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:13 pm 
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WorBlux wrote:
kage_ar wrote:
I would agree with this caveat:

Currently use of marijuana is a federal crime. Until it is legal, one is breaking the law regardless of the State/local decriminalization.


It's not use that's illegal, it's possession and distribution. And even then they have to prove a federal nexus to prosecute.

As for morality, you may want to use the search feature, there's interesting discussion on this board from the past.


My intent is to distill down all the discussions into once consise answer. I’ve read many of the discussions, but its difficult to get anything concise.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:44 pm 
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Peetem wrote:
My intent is to distill down all the discussions into once concise answer. I’ve read many of the discussions, but its difficult to get anything concise.


I think part of the reason is that "recreational use" is a fairly broad category. Your points 1 and 3 are generally accepted as correct. The response to 2 is at best possibly or potentially. You have to look at the specific case, the habit or lack thereof generally. Are there specific personal obligation that are being interfered with? Can you afford it? How does it effect your affect? What's your specific legal risk? Another issue is that with typical methods of consumption it's can hard to gauge dosage and the effect of a dose can change quite a bit influenced by fluctuations of endogenous chemistry and tolerance. The short answer I think is "Maybe, It's likely better not to do and if you do, do it carefully."

And then there's also marginal medical use, where another compound could be effective, but you use cannabis because you enjoy or tolerate the side effects better.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:10 pm 
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WorBlux wrote:
Peetem wrote:
My intent is to distill down all the discussions into once concise answer. I’ve read many of the discussions, but its difficult to get anything concise.


I think part of the reason is that "recreational use" is a fairly broad category. Your points 1 and 3 are generally accepted as correct. The response to 2 is at best possibly or potentially. You have to look at the specific case, the habit or lack thereof generally. Are there specific personal obligation that are being interfered with? Can you afford it? How does it effect your affect? What's your specific legal risk? Another issue is that with typical methods of consumption it's can hard to gauge dosage and the effect of a dose can change quite a bit influenced by fluctuations of endogenous chemistry and tolerance. The short answer I think is "Maybe, It's likely better not to do and if you do, do it carefully."

And then there's also marginal medical use, where another compound could be effective, but you use cannabis because you enjoy or tolerate the side effects better.


Thank you.

You have distilled down to what I thought was the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:51 am 
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Peregrinator wrote:
I don't believe recreational use of marijuana can be morally justified.

I have an inclination to agree with this, but I'd like something to fall back on to justify my aversion to this other than my utter dislike of pot-heads and hippies.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:42 am 
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Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:22 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol


Makes sense. Thank you.

I'm surprised tipsy is venially sinful though. I had no idea.

Well now I know! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:41 am 
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Peetem wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Note, in itself, getting tipsy is usually a venial sin. It is justified for a just cause, like conviviality, or easing sorrow (like in mourning, obviously not for clinical depression). And even then only if no serious inconvenience or scandal arises

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol


Makes sense. Thank you.

I'm surprised tipsy is venially sinful though. I had no idea.

Well now I know! :)


From what I've seen, "tipsy" makes the drinker lose empathy give himself to bitterness and to a veritable, albeit temporary, insanity. Hence, I utterly detest drinking and find even its odour repugnant.

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 Post subject: Re: Moral question #2 - Marijuana
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:56 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:

For non therapeutic use of pot to be moral, not only must it not be like perfect inebriation (and with modern pot that is very hard), it needs some justification. It does not aid with conviviality, and so lacks the ordering to the good most reasonable with alcohol

On what do you base your claim that marijuana "does not aid with conviviality"?


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