Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 23 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:22 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Does fear that a particular administrator (Julius Caesar) might become a tyrant make his killing permissible?

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:57 pm 
Offline
King of Cool
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:30 pm
Posts: 76073
Religion: Anticukite Catholic
No

_________________
Excelsior!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:00 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Are you replying to the question in the thread title or the question in the post content?

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:23 pm 
Offline
Our Lady's Gladiator
Our Lady's Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:26 am
Posts: 103140
Location: Revelation 11:19-12:1
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree Knight of Columbus
#2 is my guess :fyi:

_________________
All Marian devotion begins with Christ,is centered on Christ,and ends with Christ.
As Mary brought Jesus to us,so shall She bring us to Jesus!


De Maria numquam satis

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:18 am 
Offline
There Can Be Only One
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Posts: 12672
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic
Yes. No.

Similarly with the other conspirators.

_________________
Where’er the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s music and laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!
~Hilaire Belloc

Semper Fi!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:23 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:12 am 
Offline
Prodigal Son of Thunder
Prodigal Son of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:54 am
Posts: 39971
Location: Ithilien
Religion: Dunedain Catholic
Church Affiliations: AWC, CSB, UIGSE-FSE (FNE)
Jack3 wrote:
If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

You can't commit evil so that good might follow

_________________
Formerly Bagheera

"Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the King." (1 Peter 2:17)
Federation of North-American Explorers - North Star Group - How You Can Help


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:18 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Does this count as legitimate defense?

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:23 pm 
Offline
Trophy Dwarf
Trophy Dwarf
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:10 pm
Posts: 34596
Location: Here in the center holding my bleeding heart...
Religion: Catholic Convert
Church Affiliations: Dorothy Day Guild
Jack3 wrote:
Does this count as legitimate defense?


Only if Brutus happened upon Cesar killing a guy.

_________________
Living life on prayers and hooks and needles...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:26 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5072
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:26 pm 
Offline
Master
Master

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:33 am
Posts: 3848
Religion: Catholic
theJack wrote:
The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?


All admins are at least oppressors. :fyi:

_________________
"So mercifully blessed to be free from the ravages of intelligence." - Taken from Time Bandits


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:01 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5072
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
et tu, Peetem?

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:30 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81311
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
theJack wrote:
The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?

If?

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:32 pm 
Offline
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:55 am
Posts: 81311
Location: 1.5532386636 radians
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: 4th Degree KofC
Jack3 wrote:
If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/?ref_=fn_al_tt_0

_________________
Nos autem in nomine Domini Dei nostri

Need something to read?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:33 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
theJack wrote:
et tu, Peetem?

:laughhard

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:36 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5072
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
theJack wrote:
The OP wonders about the situation in which you fear an administrator might become a tyrant. But what if the administrator actually is a tyrant?

If?

:(

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
If Brutus was 100% sure that Caesar would kill a particular person, would Brutus be justified?

Can you explain?

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0181689/?ref_=fn_al_tt_0

Maybe the difference in my question or at least in my reading of Jack's question is I sort of assume that a tyrant is one who has demonstrated their willingness to kill to achieve their ends. So, sure, there's the preventing future crimes angle; but more, there's a reaction to what you presently are based on past crimes. That seems to me to be what it means to be a tyrant rather than merely fear that someone will become a tyrant.

edit:

But most importantly:

Jack3 wrote:
theJack wrote:
et tu, Peetem?

:laughhard

:laughhard :laughhard

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:41 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
If I can kill to save my life, a soldier can kill for his country, etc then how is the scenario of killing any person who will kill another person? I think that's what T'm getting at.

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:47 pm 
Offline
Adept
Adept
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 5072
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Religion: Christian & Missionary Alliance
Jack3 wrote:
If I can kill to save my life, a soldier can kill for his country, etc then how is the scenario of killing any person who will kill another person? I think that's what T'm getting at.

I assume the difference goes back to this:

kage_ar wrote:
Jack3 wrote:
Does this count as legitimate defense?


Only if Brutus happened upon Cesar killing a guy.

My understanding is that you can use lethal force to protect another that is in the process of trying to commit murder precisely because, in a case like that, lethal force is what would be likely (even if only considered prudentially) to save the person being killed. On the other hand, if you are aware of a conspiracy to murder, then lethal force is almost certainly not required to save the life of the other. Off the top of my head, you can share your knowledge with the proper authorities; you can warn the other person; if nothing else, you can stand guard for the other, and so on.

But, sure, if I see Caesar about to hack up some dude, and the only thing I can do to save the guy is to shiv 'em . . . well . . . if it must be, then so be it.

I think.

_________________
Indeed, the Lord Jesus, when He prayed to the Father, "that all may be one. . . as we are one" (John 17:21-22) opened up vistas closed to human reason, for He implied a certain likeness between the union of the divine Persons, and the unity of God's sons in truth and charity. This likeness reveals that man, who is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself, cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of himself. ~ Pope Paul VI, Gaudium et Spes 24.3


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:49 pm 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:36 am
Posts: 8905
Location: India
Religion: Catholic (Syro Malabar)
Here, the hypothetical tyrant is the authority, and is presumably strong enough to defeat someone who stands guard.

_________________
"May our tongues proclaim Your truth. May Your Cross be a protection for us as we let our tongues be turned into new harps and sing hymns with fiery lips"

-From the introduction to Our Father, "On the feasts of the Lord and other important feasts", Syro Malabar rite


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Did Brutus sin?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:32 am 
Offline
Sons of Thunder
Sons of Thunder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 9:34 pm
Posts: 29103
Location: Sine Domum
Religion: Roman Catholic
Even were Brutus not a traitorous opportunist, to whom Caesar was greatly beneficent, the idea that Caesar was a tyrant is absurd to me, if we consider the state of Rome, he was a necessity.

But even if we consider him a tyrant, there is no support in Catholic tradition for tyrannicide. Even on a practical level, well here is Aquinas:

Quote:
For it may happen that those who act against the tyrant are unable to prevail and the tyrant then will rage the more. But should one be able to prevail against the tyrant, from this fact itself very grave dissensions among the people frequently ensue: the multitude may be broken up into factions either during their revolt against the tyrant, or in process of the organization of the government, after the tyrant has been overthrown. Moreover, it sometimes happens that while the multitude is driving out the tyrant by the help of some man, the latter, having received the power, thereupon seizes the tyranny. Then, fearing to suffer from another what he did to his predecessor, he oppresses his subjects with an even more grievous slavery. This is wont to happen in tyranny, namely, that the second becomes more grievous than the one preceding, inasmuch as, without abandoning the previous oppressions, he himself thinks up fresh ones from the malice of his heart. Whence in Syracuse, at a time when everyone desired the death of Dionysius, a certain old woman kept constantly praying that he might be unharmed and that he might survive her. When the tyrant learned this he asked why she did it. Then she said: “When I was a girl we had a harsh tyrant and I wished for his death; when he was killed, there succeeded him one who was a little harsher. I was very eager to see the end of his dominion also, and we began to have a third ruler still more harsh—that was you. So if you should be taken away, a worse would succeed in your place.”

If the excess of tyranny is unbearable, some have been of the opinion that it would be an act of virtue for strong men to slay the tyrant and to expose themselves to the danger of death in order to set the multitude free. An example of this occurs even in the Old Testament, for a certain Aioth slew Eglon, King of Moab, who was oppressing the people of God under harsh slavery, thrusting a dagger into his thigh; and he was made a judge of the people [Judges 3:14 ff].

But this opinion is not in accord with apostolic teaching. For Peter admonishes us to be reverently subject to our masters, not only to the good and gentle but also the froward [1 Pet 2:18-19]: “For if one who suffers unjustly bear his trouble for conscience’ sake, this is grace.” Wherefore, when many emperors of the Romans tyrannically persecuted the faith of Christ, a great number both of the nobility and the common people were converted to the faith and were praised for patiently bearing death for Christ. They did not resist although they were armed, and this is plainly manifested in the case of the holy Theban legion.” Aioth, then, must be considered rather as having slain a foe than assassinated a ruler, however tyrannical, of the people. Hence in the Old Testament we also read that they who killed Joas, the king of Juda, who had fallen away from the worship of God, were slain and their children spared according to the precept of the law” (2 Sam 14:5-6).

_________________
Quoniam sapientia aperuit os mutorum, et linguas infantium fecit disertas.

http://stomachosus-thomistarum.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 2   [ 23 posts ]   Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


Jump to: