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 Post subject: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:14 pm 
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So I was reading Stephen K. Ray’s book Upon This Rock and found St Cyprian of Carthage’s quote regarding the Papacy

Quote:
The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, I say unto you, that you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, Feed my sheep. And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, As the Father has sent me, even so send I you: Receive the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins you remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins you retain, they shall be retained; John 20:21 yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one.


but then in the next passage of the original text and not mentioned in the book say

Quote:
Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity. Which one Church, also, the Holy Spirit in the Song of Songs designated in the person of our Lord, and says, My dove, my spotless one, is but one. She is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her. Song of Songs 6:9 Does he who does not hold this unity of the Church think that he holds the faith?


Is there an explanation for this? I imagine there is but I can’t think of one


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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:01 pm 
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Can you say more about what requires an explanation?

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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:14 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Can you say more about what requires an explanation?


How this quote seems to put the apostles on the same authority and honor as Peter, denouncing the Papacy


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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:21 pm 
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TehBlackhole wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Can you say more about what requires an explanation?


How this quote seems to put the apostles on the same authority and honor as Peter, denouncing the Papacy

Denouncing? :scratch:

The thrust of the passage is the unity of the Church, and the locus of that unity is placed with St. Peter. Yes, the other apostles are--like St. Peter--apostles, they are nevertheless not the source of the unity which proceeds in the beginning from our Lord's decision to make St. Peter the Rock. The passage seems to me quite clear in affirming the dignity of the apostolic office, while also being quite clear in affirming the primacy of St. Peter.

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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:30 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
TehBlackhole wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Can you say more about what requires an explanation?


How this quote seems to put the apostles on the same authority and honor as Peter, denouncing the Papacy

Denouncing? :scratch:

The thrust of the passage is the unity of the Church, and the locus of that unity is placed with St. Peter. Yes, the other apostles are--like St. Peter--apostles, they are nevertheless not the source of the unity which proceeds in the beginning from our Lord's decision to make St. Peter the Rock. The passage seems to me quite clear in affirming the dignity of the apostolic office, while also being quite clear in affirming the primacy of St. Peter.


Well yes but I'm saying more in reference to East Orthodox objection that "sure it does affirm primacy of honor but not of authority"


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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:26 am 
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There's no reference to a primacy of honor. If anything, the passage could be read as denying a primacy of honor, since it says the other apostles are endowed with a like partnership of both honor and power. But that's clearly not the real thrust of the passage. The primacy that remains is one of unity. How to cash that out in super precise theological terms, I don't know, and Catholic-Orthodox disputes are not an area I've worried much about. But you're not getting primacy of honor out of this passage.

Also, "denouncing" definitely doesn't fit. :fyi: I trust you simply used the wrong word by accident.

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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:42 am 
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gherkin wrote:
There's no reference to a primacy of honor. If anything, the passage could be read as denying a primacy of honor, since it says the other apostles are endowed with a like partnership of both honor and power. But that's clearly not the real thrust of the passage. The primacy that remains is one of unity. How to cash that out in super precise theological terms, I don't know, and Catholic-Orthodox disputes are not an area I've worried much about. But you're not getting primacy of honor out of this passage.

Also, "denouncing" definitely doesn't fit. :fyi: I trust you simply used the wrong word by accident.


Yes but I meant more that the Petrine office regarding Peter and his successors authority are undermined here due to the other apostles having a like power


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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:42 am 
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And whoops I didn’t know this question was specifically for this section in Catholicism!


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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:03 am 
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TehBlackhole wrote:
gherkin wrote:
There's no reference to a primacy of honor. If anything, the passage could be read as denying a primacy of honor, since it says the other apostles are endowed with a like partnership of both honor and power. But that's clearly not the real thrust of the passage. The primacy that remains is one of unity. How to cash that out in super precise theological terms, I don't know, and Catholic-Orthodox disputes are not an area I've worried much about. But you're not getting primacy of honor out of this passage.

Also, "denouncing" definitely doesn't fit. :fyi: I trust you simply used the wrong word by accident.


Yes but I meant more that the Petrine office regarding Peter and his successors authority are undermined here due to the other apostles having a like power

The power that is referred to sure looks like the power to forgive sins.

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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:33 pm 
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St. Cyprian also says this:

Quote:
On him [Peter] He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?


Trying to decipher the exact nature of the Papacy from Cyprian alone is not going to happen - and conversely, trying to discredit it from Cyprian alone appears ineffective. Power and honor in context may appear to be about the power to forgive sins as noted. However, Cyprian still admits that the See of Peter has primary and is the source of unity. There is nothing explicit here about immediate and universal jurisdiction of the Pope (although I would argue that it is implied with the See of Peter being a the source of unity, and one falls outside the Church if this unity is not met) OR anything about a mere primacy of honor/first among equals.

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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:05 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
...I would argue that it is implied with the See of Peter being a the source of unity, and one falls outside the Church if this unity is not met....

I agree. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: St. Cyprian on the Papacy
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:03 pm 
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