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 Post subject: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:45 am 
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I'm just putting this up here to see if anyone has an answer to these questions.

What is the goal?

I really don't want to start a debate or have any acrimony, I'm just wondering what I missed in regards to an answer to this post and the question posed in it?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:17 am 
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To give glory to God?

FYI, Kronen and Reitan--neither of whom, BTW, embraces a Christianity you'd be very satisfied with--entirely ignore throughout their book the issue of the fallen angels. As does the author of that blog post. But the "problems" being posed by Reitan and Kronen, and by that author, if they really are problems, apply just as obviously to the fallen angels as to damned souls. Hence, the problems aren't about human damnation, but about hell pure and simple.

If you follow out those arguments and think they're persuasive, then you're committed to saying the Devil and his angels will be redeemed, which is heresy. (Forget about any possible wiggle room on whether all humans will be saved.)

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:10 am 
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Other prominent advocates of "Dare We Hope?" also seem not address the question of the following angels. Unless you want to go all Origen (or at least his loopier followers), I don't see a way around it.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:19 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Other prominent advocates of "Dare We Hope?" also seem not address the question of the following angels. Unless you want to go all Origen (or at least his loopier followers), I don't see a way around it.


But my question (let's ignore the firestorm that will come from discussing Origen for now) remains - to what purpose is making souls suffer without remediation?

There are five questions regarding purpose in the piece. Could we address them and purpose, rather than getting side tracked?

I could - almost - see more purpose in annihilation after punishment (so satisfy justice) than I could see eternal torment. The purpose of annihilation would be that which is found in Corinthians - that God be "all in all," which would mandate in some form, the removal and eradication forever of all sin.

Anyway, to what purpose?

The question remains.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:30 am 
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I have no experience or knowledge of fallen angels. I don't personally know any. But I know human beings, some I love, most are not practicing Christians, some who annoy me but I wish them no harm, and some whom I want to suffer (such as Trump, and terrorists, etc) but not too much, only to the extent necessary for them to see the error of their ways so that their suffering will enable them to become better human beings. So I'd like to know what is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment of human beings?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:35 am 
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gherkin gave the answer.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:43 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
gherkin gave the answer.

I'm not in any way more enlightened after reading gherkin's answer.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:44 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
gherkin gave the answer.


Nope.

I find it horrendous to even imagine that, given that the Sacred Scriptures define God as love. We glorify God for who He is, just as we give glory to persons here on earth who exhibit traits which deserve our honor and respect. To state that God would torture a soul forever when He is love is a contradiction and does not seem in line with the glory we give Him for the love shown at the Cross.

Let me put it another way - no one would give glory to a despot who for his own reasons, inflicted pain upon another person without relenting. We jail such people as sociopaths. To describe our loving Father in such terms - how does that possibly bring Him glory?


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:46 am 
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I thought this wasn't going to be a debate.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:51 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I thought this wasn't going to be a debate.


Father - I'm not trying to debate. I was saying that I feel the question isn't yet answered, and I was trying to show the reason why I feel that The Pickle hasn't given an answer.

Okay, let's take this one at a time -

I have heard that the purpose of hell is that the justice of God be satisfied. But if there is no end to the punishment, as it says in the blog piece, then justice is never satisfied, for when justice is satisfied, then the punishment comes to an end. How then is the purpose of satisfying justice fulfilled?

BTW - Gherkin - have you read Kronen and Reitan's book spoken of in the first post? Just curious.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:01 pm 
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Of course I have--that's how I was able to explain to you one of its most serious problems. (There are more than a few others.)

And I did give an answer. Evidently, it's one you don't like, but that doesn't make it not an answer.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:11 pm 
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Can I recommend a book? God is not Nice.

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can I recommend a book? God is not Nice.


By whom?

ETA: Is it this one: https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Nice-Rej ... s+not+nice ?

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Norwegianblue wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can I recommend a book? God is not Nice.


By whom?

ETA: Is it this one: https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Nice-Rej ... s+not+nice ?

:scratch: Father mentioned a book. You linked to something...I dunno...electrical or something. Not a book. :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:25 pm 
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594717486/re ... lCbCPG58ZV

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:36 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Norwegianblue wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can I recommend a book? God is not Nice.


By whom?

ETA: Is it this one: https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Nice-Rej ... s+not+nice ?

:scratch: Father mentioned a book. You linked to something...I dunno...electrical or something. Not a book. :fyi:


Here's something electrical for you: https://www.amazon.com/Presto-Professio ... mp_s_a_1_4 :fyi:

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Norwegianblue wrote:
gherkin wrote:
Norwegianblue wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can I recommend a book? God is not Nice.


By whom?

ETA: Is it this one: https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Nice-Rej ... s+not+nice ?

:scratch: Father mentioned a book. You linked to something...I dunno...electrical or something. Not a book. :fyi:


Here's something electrical for you: https://www.amazon.com/Presto-Professio ... mp_s_a_1_4 :fyi:


Ooooooooooh. Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaalad!!!

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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:49 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
Norwegianblue wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Can I recommend a book? God is not Nice.


By whom?

ETA: Is it this one: https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Nice-Rej ... s+not+nice ?

:scratch: Father mentioned a book. You linked to something...I dunno...electrical or something. Not a book. :fyi:


I had no problem with the link.


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:14 pm 
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Light of the East wrote:
I'm just putting this up here to see if anyone has an answer to these questions.

What is the goal?

I really don't want to start a debate or have any acrimony, I'm just wondering what I missed in regards to an answer to this post and the question posed in it?

you are starting off with the wrong premise here

why do you assume there must always be a goal?

plus: Why does God of all persons need one?

and there are other problems


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 Post subject: Re: What is the purpose or goal of eternal punishment?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Ultimately the manifestation of justice in the damned adds to the glory of the elect. Neither God nor they take delight in the suffering itself, but rather the justice.

We have a hard time, here, seeing the justice as we only readily apprehend the created good, and hence offences against a finite good. But that is part of the manifestation brought by hell, the greatness of God, against Whom there is such offense. The elect will take more glory in the contrast, seeing the fate they deserved but were spared, even seeing the lengths of God's mercy among those that rejected Him.

The glorification of God is in His elect. You don't have to be comfortable with the idea, here. Hell, in a way, should be a troubling doctrine. But this is how it is, no ands, ifs, or buts about it. God wills the continued existence of the damned because it adds to the blessedness of the elect, through the manifestation of His glory in them.

It is understandable, being you are not in heaven, to not see this glorification! But we must acknowledge it is so

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Last edited by Pro Ecclesia Dei on Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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