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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Assuming a person actually had the stamina to commit said sin 20 times in one day, miraculously recognized the error of his (okay, maybe her. I sure don't want to be accused of not being inclusive.) ways and made a sincere Act of Contrition, received absolution, then got hit by flaming meteorite, we must assume this person will reach the portal of Heaven. I wouldn't count on the privilege in articulo mortis. Play it safe - make that Act of Contrition now.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:25 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
Assuming a person actually had the stamina to commit said sin 20 times in one day, miraculously recognized the error of his (okay, maybe her. I sure don't want to be accused of not being inclusive.) ways and made a sincere Act of Contrition, received absolution, then got hit by flaming meteorite, we must assume this person will reach the portal of Heaven. I wouldn't count on the privilege in articulo mortis. Play it safe - make that Act of Contrition now.


Taking Luther's 'commit adultery 20 times a day' comment completely at face value misunderstands his manner of speaking. Luther loved hyperbole, and he always expressed himself with extreme hyperbole and you have to take this into account when reading anything he said. What he actually meant was simply that even great sinners could be forgiven if they repented.

Or, as Luther might have expressed that thought 'Luther thought that hyperbole was the single greatest thing that had ever existed in the entire universe and that anyone who didn't share his love of hyperbole deserved to be shot in the head 57 times and then burn in hell for all eternity.'


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:00 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
You do know that not all Protestants believe in anything even approximating OSAS?

yes
It is, in fact, the minority view. And Luther didn't believe in OSAS, so I don't really know why you include him in this.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:07 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Denise Dee wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I think you're doing some eisegesis here. I'm not agreeing with Denise; I just don't think the passages you're citing do what you want them to do.

What are you not agreeing with, Obi?

Catechism 1821
We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end" and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."

How can you hope and pray for all to be saved if you believe that most Christians won't be saved?

And if God is that harsh, how can you have much hope that he won't judge you as harshly as he judges the majority of Christians? How can such beliefs not cause deep despair which in itself is a sin, if I remember correctly?

for one thing, you assume too much when you say (I will copy/paste it here) How can you hope and pray for all to be saved if you believe that most Christians won't be saved?

makes no sense. Maybe you just want to accuse me of being.. whatever? God knows

you don't beleive a person can be damned but then someone prays for him/her and the person gets on the right track? That is the reason we pray. I never said that those on their way to hell STAY there.. never remotely implied it.

and I do feel God "judges me harshly".. In the Bible, which i have read (the whole thing, many parts over and over) we are told God is a "tough taskmaster." Anyone who has tried to diligently follow Jesus knows that it is not easy.

I am not saying that followers of Jesus do good works and if they fail in such.. they will be tossed into Hell, should they die before correcting themselves.. never said anything like that.

You can't be full of love if you're full of fear.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:51 pm 
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Denise Dee wrote:
You can't be full of love if you're full of fear.

Timeamus, et amemus Deum vivum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1BTWCpEFRQ


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Riverboat wrote:
Assuming a person actually had the stamina to commit said sin 20 times in one day, miraculously recognized the error of his (okay, maybe her. I sure don't want to be accused of not being inclusive.) ways and made a sincere Act of Contrition, received absolution, then got hit by flaming meteorite, we must assume this person will reach the portal of Heaven.

That was my first thought on reading the thread title.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:54 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
and I do feel God "judges me harshly".. In the Bible, which i have read (the whole thing, many parts over and over) we are told God is a "tough taskmaster."


Where does the bible tell us that God is a "tough taskmaster?" This is what the elder brother of the prodigal son acused his father of, but this is hardly what the father was like.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:57 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
Doom wrote:
Do you really think that saying that something is 'a stupid belief' is the kind of compelling argument that will lead anyone to change his mind?

it seems to work for Trump

:)

reporter asks question (wish I could remember it)

Trump says

Stupid question

laugh


You do not understand the point Doom is making. He is referring to persuading and convincing the other person. The said reporter did not, of the best of my knowledge, become a Trump supporter after the incident.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:09 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
(you trust such a Presence, don't you?)

All posters here who identify as Catholic believe in what the Church proposes for belief.

Quote:
and it seems the Lord was telling me that if a person commits a certain sin over and over, even though he keeps repenting of it, at some point, his repentance will not do any good because he has seriously damaged himself.. his soul.

That proposition is false. That definitely not the voice of God.

Quote:
It is precisely because sin exists in the world, which "God so loved...that he gave his only Son,"115 that God, who "is love,"116 cannot reveal Himself otherwise than as mercy. This corresponds not only to the most profound truth of that love which God is, but also to the whole interior truth of man and of the world which is man's temporary homeland.

Mercy in itself, as a perfection of the infinite God, is also infinite. Also infinite therefore and inexhaustible is the Father's readiness to receive the prodigal children who return to His home. Infinite are the readiness and power of forgiveness which flow continually from the marvelous value of the sacrifice of the Son. No human sin can prevail over this power or even limit it. On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit it, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent, in other words persistence in obstinacy, opposing grace and truth, especially in the face of the witness of the cross and resurrection of Christ.

Therefore, the Church professes and proclaims conversion. Conversion to God always consists in discovering His mercy, that is, in discovering that love which is patient and kind117 as only the Creator and Father can be; the love to which the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"118 is faithful to the uttermost consequences in the history of His covenant with man; even to the cross and to the death and resurrection of the Son. Conversion to God is always the fruit of the"rediscovery of this Father, who is rich in mercy.

Authentic knowledge of the God of mercy, the God of tender love, is a constant and inexhaustible source of conversion, not only as a momentary interior act but also as a permanent attitude, as a state of mind. Those who come to know God in this way, who "see" Him in this way, can live only in a state of being continually converted to Him. They live, therefore, in statu conversionis; and it is this state of conversion which marks out the most profound element of the pilgrimage of every man and woman on earth in statu viatoris. It is obvious that the Church professes the mercy of God, revealed in the crucified and risen Christ, not only by the word of her teaching but above all through the deepest pulsation of the life of the whole People of God. By means of this testimony of life, the Church fulfills the mission proper to the People of God, the mission which is a sharing in and, in a sense, a continuation of the messianic mission of Christ Himself.

-St John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:17 pm 
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@flyingaway,

Major reading recommendation:

"Preparation for Death”, by Saint Alphonsus De Liguori https://catholicebooks.wordpress.com/20 ... e-liguori/

Other, minor recommendations:

"Abandonment to Divine Providence" by Fr. de Caussade http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/ ... /index.php

Spe Salvi by B16 http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-x ... salvi.html

"How Not To Share Your Faith" https://www.amazon.com/How-Share-Your-F ... 1888992301


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Taking Luther's 'commit adultery 20 times a day' comment completely at face value misunderstands his manner of speaking. Luther loved hyperbole, and he always expressed himself with extreme hyperbole and you have to take this into account when reading anything he said.

Fair enough. Instead of "20 times a day," let's just make it a single incident. Works the same, no?


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:37 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Riverboat wrote:
Assuming a person actually had the stamina to commit said sin 20 times in one day, miraculously recognized the error of his (okay, maybe her. I sure don't want to be accused of not being inclusive.) ways and made a sincere Act of Contrition, received absolution, then got hit by flaming meteorite, we must assume this person will reach the portal of Heaven. I wouldn't count on the privilege in articulo mortis. Play it safe - make that Act of Contrition now.


Taking Luther's 'commit adultery 20 times a day' comment completely at face value misunderstands his manner of speaking. Luther loved hyperbole, and he always expressed himself with extreme hyperbole and you have to take this into account when reading anything he said. What he actually meant was simply that even great sinners could be forgiven if they repented.

Or, as Luther might have expressed that thought 'Luther thought that hyperbole was the single greatest thing that had ever existed in the entire universe and that anyone who didn't share his love of hyperbole deserved to be shot in the head 57 times and then burn in hell for all eternity.'



Luther said what he said

and you can't cahnge what he said to fit some narrative because maybe you like the knuckelhead the one who divided Christ's Church

he said many other VILE things and was constantly feeling that he would end up in Hell which I believe he did


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:38 pm 
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Jack3 wrote:
@flyingaway,

Major reading recommendation:

"Preparation for Death”, by Saint Alphonsus De Liguori https://catholicebooks.wordpress.com/20 ... e-liguori/

Other, minor recommendations:

"Abandonment to Divine Providence" by Fr. de Caussade http://www.catholictreasury.info/books/ ... /index.php

Spe Salvi by B16 http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-x ... salvi.html

"How Not To Share Your Faith" https://www.amazon.com/How-Share-Your-F ... 1888992301


thanks

now I need to find a catholic bookstore


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:08 pm 
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Maybe you can use teh interwebz.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:49 pm 
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flyingaway wrote:
that is what Luther said...

Source?


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:11 am 
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TreeBeard wrote:
flyingaway wrote:
that is what Luther said...

Source?



I'd say from a letter fragment , written to Melanchthon,addressing a number of points, the last being concerned with sinning and forgiveness. And if that's it, it's not fornication 20 times a day, it's kill or commit adultery thousands of times a day. Hyperbolic, that, as noted.

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:00 am 
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Mrs. Timmy wrote:
I don’t pretend to be the most knowledgeable person in this forum, but I feel confident in making a guess as to what caused the demise of our hypothetical subject. Twenty times in one day?!? :shock:


Yeah, I sorta never got beyond that concept.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:02 am 
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Doom wrote:
... Or, as Luther might have expressed that thought 'Luther thought that hyperbole was the single greatest thing that had ever existed in the entire universe and that anyone who didn't share his love of hyperbole deserved to be shot in the head 57 times and then burn in hell for all eternity.'


That was good.

::):


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:06 am 
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GKC wrote:
...even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. ...


Now I won't be able to get past that concept.


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 Post subject: Re: commit adultery 20 times in 1 day, still go 2 Heaven?!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:11 am 
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Highlander wrote:
GKC wrote:
...even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. ...


Now I won't be able to get past that concept.


Requires a certain obsession. Rarely achieved.


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