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 Post subject: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:37 pm 
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The Catholic position is that all of the theological virtues are given by God's grace and all need our willful response to them: Faith, Hope, and Charity. God's grace infuses us with them but we still need to act in accord with His will on all 3.

While some other faith traditions put primacy on Faith to the exclusion of others. If not exclusion the at least viewing them as being of lesser ontologic importance.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:00 pm 
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No.

A person is justified by baptism or an acceptable substitute; in any case, a person is justified by an influx of sanctifying grace.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:51 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
No.

A person is justified by baptism or an acceptable substitute; in any case, a person is justified by an influx of sanctifying grace.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM


In the case of adults however, charity is a requirement no?

If you are positively willing to not be charitable while being baptized you do not enter into sanctifying grace.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:46 am 
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Perhaps, but the difficulty with the OP's post is that the theological virtues are infused with justification and not before it.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:57 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Perhaps, but the difficulty with the OP's post is that the theological virtues are infused with justification and not before it.


If there is charity is there always justification?

If justification, is there always sanctifying grace?

(I heard a Charles Coulombe try and make the case (in defence of Father Feeney) that while a catecucheum can be justified, they would still not go to heaven when they die.)

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:02 am 
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Yes to both.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:03 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Yes to both.


And is it de fide that not is require for salvation other than to die in sanctifying grace?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:39 am 
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I assume you meant "naught." I hesitate to answer with a simple "Yes" because it's a more complex issue than that because dying in a state of grace is not a matter of simple happenstance.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Perhaps, but the difficulty with the OP's post is that the theological virtues are infused with justification and not before it.



Okay... take away my misunderstanding of the theological virtues being infused with justification (as opposed to before it).

Is it fair to say that in order to maintain justification one needs to willfully reply to all 3 theological virtues? Again, in contrast with some religious traditions that put primacy on Faith?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a fair statement of justification?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:02 pm 
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I would say rather that the theological virtues are given to help us undertake meritorious actions. I don't know that it's helpful to say that each of them needs an explicit response.

I see where you're trying to go, but I don't think that this road goes there.

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