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 Post subject: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:24 pm 
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Greetings;

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2018 ... ments.html

Attendees at next week’s popular cryptocurrency conference are faced with the irony of using cash instead of bitcoin to pay for the event

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:38 am 
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The Exterminator
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It's a currency that is unusable as a currency. Which makes it......... basically nothing. The only way to invest in bitcoin is to short it, because it is worth nothing.

One of the investment banks with Morgan in the name, can't remember which, issued a letter the other day in which they advised that they think the real value of bitcoin may be zero.


So I'm not the only one who thinks that. If to handle all the transactions that happen at 7-11 stores would require the total energy output of the sun, and a supercomputer the size of the moon, you have a problem. Giant stone wheels would be a much better medium of exchange.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:45 am 
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Oh, don't forget that the odds are 100% that your bitcoin will be stolen, given enough time.

I predict bitcoin will hit $1 million. If bitcoin is still around in 50 years, the last one will get sold to a museum for $1 million.

I hear people say they wish they had bought bitcoin years ago. I would have except there wasn't a safe way to store it I knew of. The exchanges and bitcoin banks get hacked and robbed all the time. If you had bought years ago you would have been robbed by now.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:51 am 
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1) Bitcoin is the ultimate fiat currency.
2) I'm not sure where Bombadil is getting his info, but most of it is wrong.
3) There would be nothing physical to sell to a museum.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:39 am 
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3) it could be loaded onto a thumb drive. Or a chip planted in a bitcoin symbol shaped coin. That would make a nice display.

2) which info?

Bitcoin transactions are handled by miners who also mine. They do both. Mining requires exponentially increasing computer power which requires a lot of electricity. A mining computer like the antminer s9 or so requires 1600 watts. That's more than a space heater. Current processing fees per transaction are $50. That may get fixed, but the computing power required to handle transactions is a very real problem.

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Last edited by Bombadil on Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:41 am 
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2) bitfinex hacked last April. Exchanges hacked in south Korea last month. Exchanges all over the world hacked all the time. Mt Gox disaster wiped out tons of bitcoin. Official estimates of bitcoin lost so far are about 25%.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:52 am 
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The real purpose of it, when started, was to provide a medium of exchange for Tor/darknet transactions, (...shudder..). Essentially an easy money laundering tool.

This silly phenomena of it "having value" is a ponzi scheme mentality, it only has value because people keep buying in. It is going to really crash hard here very soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:21 am 
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It does require processing power to mine bitcoin. No one knows quite how much, but a lot. I would be interested to see a reputable source behind the claim that it would take the output of the Sun to power the transactions at a single 7-11.

The 100% certainty of theft--again, do you have a reputable source for that? Pointing out that there have been major thefts doesn't make it so, and in fact those thefts are from exchanges where people attempt to convert bitcoin into other forms of currency.

I don't think it's a Ponzi/pyramid scheme by strict definition. One commentator called it a "collective delusion," and I think that's about right, even granted that real-world currencies aren't fixed on anything either. Bitcoin is an extra level removed from reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It does require processing power to mine bitcoin. No one knows quite how much, but a lot. I would be interested to see a reputable source behind the claim that it would take the output of the Sun to power the transactions at a single 7-11.

I meant all of the 7-11s. Ok, fine, I will refrain from hyperbole. If the world switched to bitcoin, it would require many times more energy to process the transactions than the world currently produces, and it would increase exponentially over time. It actually isn't hard to get to a calculation that would require the entire energy output of the sun. A single transaction requires the same amount of energy to process that would power 9 homes for 1 day.

Quote:
In just a few months from now, at bitcoin’s current growth rate, the electricity demanded by the cryptocurrency network will start to outstrip what’s available, requiring new energy-generating plants. And with the climate conscious racing to replace fossil fuel-base plants with renewable energy sources, new stress on the grid means more facilities using dirty technologies. By July 2019, the bitcoin network will require more electricity than the entire United States currently uses. By February 2020, it will use as much electricity as the entire world does today.

https://grist.org/article/bitcoin-could ... gy-future/

Remember, these estimates are based on the currency not even being used as a currency. If it was those numbers would skyrocket.

Quote:
The 100% certainty of theft--again, do you have a reputable source for that? Pointing out that there have been major thefts doesn't make it so, and in fact those thefts are from exchanges where people attempt to convert bitcoin into other forms of currency.

That is sort of an extrapolation. If 25% has been lost so far in just a few years, give it another couple of decades. Or a hundred years. When I put money in the bank, it stays there. Bitcoin doesn't. It's impossible to keep up with all of the hackings. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bitf ... SKCN10E0KP

Quote:
2/3 Of All Bitcoins Have Been Mined, 1/3 May Be Lost.................................................The amount of lost coins will only ever increase.

http://www.coinbuzz.com/2015/03/31/23-b ... -may-lost/

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:16 pm 
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That energy use article is open to dispute, to put it mildly.

Most money nowadays is not in the form of cash or gold or whatever. It's bits in a bank's computer memory somewhere, no more and no less susceptible to theft in principle--it's just that real banks dealing with real money have better security.

"Coins" aren't lost because of theft, BTW. The article from which you got the last quotation says what the causes of loss are: "Bitcoins can be lost due to irrecoverable passwords, forgotten wallets from when Bitcoin was worth little, from hardware failure or because of the death of the bitcoin owner [who didn't leave instructions for anyone else to find a use them]."

I'm not a fan of bitcoin; I think it's a bubble and will come crashing down; but I'm incurably averse to bad arguments, even in a good cause.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:46 pm 
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AS BITCOIN on Wednesday dipped below $US10,000 for the first time since late November, extending a plunge that has wiped roughly half the value off the digital currency in the past month, there was only one question on investors’ minds.

Has the “bubble” finally burst, or was this just another wild fluctuation as bitcoin marches towards its “true value” of $US100,000 or even higher?

With Bloomberg mulling whether Wednesday’s plunge marked the beginning of the end, and the top post on Reddit’s 500,000-strong cryptocurrency forum linking to the Suicide Prevention Hotline, one Twitter user made a dry observation.

“It has to bounce because 1) the coinfreude is way too high 2) there is no f***ing way the market gods will let the chart look EXACTLY like the archetype bubble chart,” wrote user Modest Proposal.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/in ... 7338c6a88f

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Greetings:


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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:52 am 
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Bombadil wrote:
That is sort of an extrapolation. If 25% has been lost so far in just a few years, give it another couple of decades. Or a hundred years. When I put money in the bank, it stays there. Bitcoin doesn't. It's impossible to keep up with all of the hackings.


When you but money in the bank, you become an unsecured creditor, the bank lends it out to make themselves money, often charging ridiculous fees along the way, and in the long term the value of your account drops to zero due to inflation.

Even if bitcoin isn't the answer, lets not pretend that the modern money and banking system doesn't totally suck in certain ways.

And keeping funds on exchanges is the wrong way of doing bitcoin. Keep your private keys private. The energy cost of brute-force a private key is more than the Sun will put out in it's entire lifetime (and this is the and entropic minimal cost, not the cost in a real machine). Guessing a password for an online account is a lot easier. And in a hundred years there very well could be wallets that insure you against theft. (within a decade really)


Quote:
If the world switched to bitcoin, it would require many times more energy to process the transactions than the world currently produces, and it would increase exponentially over time.


Not really true. Bitcoin works on a per-block bases, not a per-transaction basis. The reason why transaction fees became so high is that there are sometimes more pending transactions than will fit on a block proposals to fix if haven't met with a whole lot of success.

There are also zk-SNARK and proof-of-stake systems that can provide similar practical security for less compute power. Bitcoin was just the proof-of-concept model of the whole blockchain currency thing. It wasn't designed to handle every single transaction in the world ever. It could be the next gold, but everyday transactions (the next silver) is going to end up being one or more of the alt-coins.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:58 am 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Most money nowadays is not in the form of cash or gold or whatever. It's bits in a bank's computer memory somewhere, no more and no less susceptible to theft in principle--it's just that real banks dealing with real money have better security.



The SWIFT system has been hacked, and individual ATM's are hacked all of the time. If criminals guess your online banking password they can steal dollars just as easy as bitcoins. It's just that the banks are able to roll back certain transactions if proven fraudulent, whereas decentralized cryptos cannot do this, by design.

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin conference not accepting bitcoin as payment...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Givi46 wrote:
The real purpose of it, when started, was to provide a medium of exchange for Tor/darknet transactions, (...shudder..). Essentially an easy money laundering tool.

This silly phenomena of it "having value" is a ponzi scheme mentality, it only has value because people keep buying in. It is going to really crash hard here very soon.


False, bitcoin came before Dark-net marketplaces. It was designed to allow direct transactions over a communication channel without the need for a trusted third party. It's no more a less a money laundering tool than other instruments that may be directly exchanged (Cash, gold, bearer bond...). It simply enabled an extension to the digital ream.

Yes, the value right now is largely speculative, but the potential value of a secure mechanism for direct transaction that cannot be messed with by anyone else is potentially huge. Block-chain tech is out there, the only real question is if it's going to be controlled by the government (in which they will be able to trace and control every transaction) or controlled by the market (where only the parties involved control the transaction).

The Tech is coming, Bank of America, IBM and other blue-chip companies are filing patents like crazy. There is no middle ground, it'll either be decentralized (rules set out on day one and set free), or centralized (where arbitrary decisions by a designated central party can change any of the rules at any time, retroactively or proactively, and see everything that goes on.)

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