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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:59 pm 
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GKC wrote:
:cry:

:cry: :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
GKC wrote:
:cry:

:cry: :cry:

:cry: :cry: :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:19 pm 
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kage_ar wrote:
Norwegianblue wrote:
Finished my O''Brian book last night and started The Lord of the Rings. A rereading is much overdue.


<< has never been able to finish LOTR. I'm just not a wizards/fantasy kinda gal.

:crying:

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:48 pm 
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LOTR is a very difficult book to read the first time, what with all the references to people, places, and events you never heard of, that are treated as if they are as familiar to you as your own backyard. And that doesn't even account for all of the characters who are given more than one name, including Aragorn, who is called 'Strider' by the Hobbits until almost the end of the book, Gandalf, who is called 'Mithraindir' in Rohan, and is called by a third name in Gondor, which I can't remember offhand, and the Nazgul, who at various points in the book are called 'Ring Wraiths' and 'Black Riders'. Not to mention the fact that to fully understand the story, you need to constantly refer to the map and then read the appendix. And that there are probably at least 100 and probably closer to 200, named characters who at least one line of dialogue, and it becomes rather difficult to keep track of who is who.

I'm a very attentive reader, and I found it very difficult to read it the first time. There were entire subplots and essential plot elements that I missed. For example, I didn't notice until the second reading that the sword and the knife which Eowyn and Merry use to kill the Witch King of Angmar were magic swords given to them by the elves at Lothlorien, which is why they worked, and it isn't because the prophecy said that 'no man' can kill him and Eowyn and Merry were not technically 'men.'

Now, it is not the most difficult book out there. George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series has all of these problems, and to a much greater degree because it is longer and much more epic in scope than LOTR. Indeed, in TSOIAF, one often finds that a character who doesn't show up until the second, third, fourth or even fifth volume, was mentioned in passing in the first volume, and Martin somehow actually expects his readers to actually remember the name of a character who was mentioned in only one line in the first book and then not mentioned again until 4,000 pages later. And TSOIAF has more than 1500 named characters who speak at least one line of dialogue.

My point is, that this kind of epic high fantasy literature can be extremely difficult to read and understand the first time through.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:55 pm 
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Doom wrote:
LOTR is a very difficult book to read the first time, what with all the references to people, places, and events you never heard of, that are treated as if they are as familiar to you as your own backyard. And that doesn't even account for all of the characters who are given more than one name, including Aragorn, who is called 'Strider' by the Hobbits until almost the end of the book, Gandalf, who is called 'Mithraindir' in Rohan, and is called by a third name in Gondor, which I can't remember offhand, and the Nazgul, who at various points in the book are called 'Ring Wraiths' and 'Black Riders'. Not to mention the fact that to fully understand the story, you need to constantly refer to the map and then read the appendix. And that there are probably at least 100 and probably closer to 200, named characters who at least one line of dialogue, and it becomes rather difficult to keep track of who is who.

I'm a very attentive reader, and I found it very difficult to read it the first time. There were entire subplots and essential plot elements that I missed. For example, I didn't notice until the second reading that the sword and the knife which Eowyn and Merry use to kill the Witch King of Angmar were magic swords given to them by the elves at Lothlorien, which is why they worked, and it isn't because the prophecy said that 'no man' can kill him and Eowyn and Merry were not technically 'men.'

Now, it is not the most difficult book out there. George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series has all of these problems, and to a much greater degree because it is longer and much more epic in scope than LOTR. Indeed, in TSOIAF, one often finds that a character who doesn't show up until the second, third, fourth or even fifth volume, was mentioned in passing in the first volume, and Martin somehow actually expects his readers to actually remember the name of a character who was mentioned in only one line in the first book and then not mentioned again until 4,000 pages later. And TSOIAF has more than 1500 named characters who speak at least one line of dialogue.

My point is, that this kind of epic high fantasy literature can be extremely difficult to read and understand the first time through.



Try reading LOTR backwards.

My memory is poor. Tell me about the sword Eowyn was given. And the knife for Merry. And when Eowyn was at Lothlorien.

I'm assuming you are thinking of Galadriel's gifts.

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Last edited by GKC on Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
.dias eh ',kcab m'I ,lleW'


Hard, isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:47 am 
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GKC wrote:

I'm assuming you are thinking of Galadriel's gifts.


Yes, that is exactly right, that is the only reason why the weapons work against the Nazgul, this is never explicitly stated, but you have to infer it, they aren't 'ordinary' blades, they are magic blades, and that is the sole reason they work against the Nazgul. Ordinary blades will not work. At one point you are told about the gift of the daggers, and when the dagger is pulled out and used against the Nazgul, at no point does he remind you 'now this is the same dagger that he got at Lothlorien from Galadriel' you just have to remember that on your own. When you have to read between the lines to understand a scene in a book, that's a difficult book to read.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:26 am 
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Doom wrote:
GKC wrote:

I'm assuming you are thinking of Galadriel's gifts.


Yes, that is exactly right, that is the only reason why the weapons work against the Nazgul, this is never explicitly stated, but you have to infer it, they aren't 'ordinary' blades, they are magic blades, and that is the sole reason they work against the Nazgul. Ordinary blades will not work. At one point you are told about the gift of the daggers, and when the dagger is pulled out and used against the Nazgul, at no point does he remind you 'now this is the same dagger that he got at Lothlorien from Galadriel' you just have to remember that on your own. When you have to read between the lines to understand a scene in a book, that's a difficult book to read.



I'll speak gently.

The gifts of Galadriel as the Fellowship departed Lothlorien are found in FOTR, book 2, chap 8, p.391/2nd American ed). Focusing on what she gave to Merry (and to Pippin) "...and to Merry and Pippin she gave small silver belts, each with a clasp wrought like a golden flower". Of course, everyone got neat stuff. And Legolas got a bow. No one got a sword or knife or dagger. And again, when did Eowyn visit Lothlorien?

As to what blade Merry wielded at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, ROTK, Book 5. chap 6, p 119/2nd American ed) "...And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust into a fire, and as he watched it. it writhed and withered and was consumed.
Thus passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse."

And the Barrow-downs, and Bombadil...FOTR, Book 1, chap 8, p. 156/2nd American ed,... "For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger..."..."' 'Old knives are long enough as swords for hobbit-people' " "...these blades were forged many long years ago by Men of Westernesse (who were) overcome by the evil King of Carn Dum, in the Land of Angmar". Who got his comeuppance at the hands of a hobbit and a shield-maiden. Thus fulfilling Glorfindel's prophecy: "He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall. These words many remembered...") ROTK, Appendix A. p.332, 2nd American ed).

I'm betting you got the idea that the sword Merry carried was a gift of Galadriel, from the movie. Much as I liked the films, they are not, of course, canonical.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:43 am 
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The sword with which Eowyn struck the killing blow against the Witch-king was an ordinary blade, as far as we know. But it was Merry's dagger that "broke the spell that knit the unseen sinews to his will" (if I remember the wording correctly) without which Eowyn could not have slain him.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:49 am 
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But I've read LOTR 25-30 times and each time I notice something that I had not before (or I notice something that I had previously noticed, but forgotten!). For example, I am currently reading it to my younger children and again, I noticed something "new". When Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are pursuing the Orcs holding Merry and Pippin, Legolas seems not to need any kind of sleep - my guess is that the lembas is having an effect on him that it does not have on the "mortal" Aragorn and Gimli.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
The sword with which Eowyn struck the killing blow against the Witch-king was an ordinary blade, as far as we know. But it was Merry's dagger that "broke the spell that knit the unseen sinews to his will" (if I remember the wording correctly) without which Eowyn could not have slain him.


Barrow-blade, of Westernesse. "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

Yes, as to Eowyn's sword.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Peregrinator wrote:
But I've read LOTR 25-30 times and each time I notice something that I had not before (or I notice something that I had previously noticed, but forgotten!). For example, I am currently reading it to my younger children and again, I noticed something "new". When Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are pursuing the Orcs holding Merry and Pippin, Legolas seems not to need any kind of sleep - my guess is that the lembas is having an effect on him that it does not have on the "mortal" Aragorn and Gimli.



Could be. Certainly Legolas stepped lightly as ever. feet hardly seeming to press the grass, and the Lembas gave all the sustenance that he needed, and he could sleep, if sleep it could be called by Men, resting his mind in the strange paths of elvish dreams, even as he walked open-eyed in the light of this world.

The two points of lembas and no sleeping could be connected, or not, it seems to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:19 pm 
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I thought it was just an elvish characteristic in general, that they didn't need much (if any) sleep.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I thought it was just an elvish characteristic in general, that they didn't need much (if any) sleep.


Point I was making.

But, maybe...

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I thought it was just an elvish characteristic in general, that they didn't need much (if any) sleep.

Yes, that is the case, and previously I had thought that Tolkien just made a mistake (otherwise Legolas could have kept watch for everyone, e.g. in Moria). But Aragorn seems surprised that Legolas is awake and about while they're pursuing the Orcs. Clearly Elves need some kind of rest but Legolas seems not even to need that while they're hunting.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:16 pm 
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I have hardly read any fiction since the start of Lent, so the hobbies have not even crossed the Brandywine yet. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Stamp collecting? Gardening? Auto-correcting?

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
Stamp collecting? Gardening? Auto-correcting?


Non-fiction reading. And some other stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Catholic novels for bedtime Lenten reading
PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Did you see your typo?

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