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 Post subject: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:31 pm 
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The Eastern Orthodox Church has been trying for decades to gather all its national (local) autocephalous churches together for one giant lets-make-some-20th century-decisions meeting. Some sources indicate that the preparations started in 1923, others say 1961. So... Orthodoxy has been trying for 50≈100 years to get this meeting off the ground.

What this meeting is to be has always been a little vague. The official title has emerged as "The Holy and Great Council." To some this harkens back to the major meetings of the undivided Church in the first millennium. It is seen as an 8th Ecumenical Council. To others it is understood as an important, high-level pan-Orthodox meeting that may or may not over time be ultimately accepted as genuinely ecumenical by all the Orthodox Churches.

And now, in the very same month the Council is to start, five Orthodox Churches indicated that they either will not attend the June 17-26 Council in Crete, or have additional criteria for their participation: Bulgaria, Antioch, Georgia, Russia, and Serbia.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:57 pm 
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As a practical matter, without the cooperation of the Patriarch of Moscow, I don't think this will amount to a hill of beans. Which is very sad.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:50 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
As a practical matter, without the cooperation of the Patriarch of Moscow, I don't think this will amount to a hill of beans. Which is very sad.


And, as an even more practical matter, whether or not the Patriarch of Moscow attends depends entirely on whether Vladimir Putin wants him to attend.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:02 pm 
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Even moreso, nothing will happen unless the Russians see a clear path to ousting Constantinople as the first see in Orthodoxy. They want their Third Romishness acknowledged by all, and the ancient canons and traditions can burn for all they care.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:04 pm 
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HalJordan wrote:
Even moreso, nothing will happen unless the Russians see a clear path to ousting Constantinople as the first see in Orthodoxy. They want their Third Romishness acknowledged by all, and the ancient canons and traditions can burn for all they care.



True, but the truth is that more than half of all the Orthodox in the world are members of the Russian Orthodox Church, so I think they kind of have a point.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:33 pm 
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Well yeah, but taking a point of numbers and expecting everyone else to be ok with making it a de jure reality in opposition to all the claims of Orthodoxy for centuries isn't happening anytime soon. Moscow doesn't even have a fabricated claim of apostolicity, which Antioch (and other churches) have pointed out in the past


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:13 pm 
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What is “very sad” is the reality that the Orthodox chose to go their own way at Trullo. Having replaced the Papal Primacy each section of the Orthodox seems to feel that they are superior, which is why they have never been able to agree even to participate in a Council.

No other attempted solution can substitute for the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Christ which holds Ecumenical Councils under the Pope.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:16 pm 
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That's sad too. But any disunion is sad to some degree.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:02 am 
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Elizabeth H. Prodromou is one of the Special Consultants attending as part of the Delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Dr. Prodromou is Visiting Associate Professor of Conflict Resolution at The Fletcher School for Law & Diplomacy (Tufts University), where she teaches in the Program in International Negotiation and Conflict Resolution.

Her skills were really needed prior to the start of the Council. (Maybe starting decades ago.)


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:09 am 
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I can imagine Christ praying for the unity: ut unum sint.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:38 pm 
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The Russians withdrew after the others. They made a very detail statement as to why... HERE.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:49 am 
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When I consider that almost 40% of the Orthodox Churches are not attending the Council I am reminded of the words of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew from 2008:

"Has Orthodoxy been divided?... (The) response commonly proffered to this question is that, despite administrational division, Orthodoxy remains united in faith, the Sacraments, etc. But is this sufficient?

“When before non-Orthodox we sometimes appear divided in theological dialogues and elsewhere; when we are unable to proceed to the realization of the long-heralded Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church; when we lack a unified voice on contemporary issues and, instead, convoke bilateral dialogues with non-Orthodox on these issues; when we fail to constitute a single Orthodox Church in the so-called Diaspora in accordance with the ecclesiological and canonical principles of our Church; how can we avoid the image of division in Orthodoxy, especially on the basis of non-theological, secular criteria?

We need, then, greater unity in order to appear to those outside not as a federation of Churches but as one unified Church... If this coordination either disappears or diminishes, the autocephaly becomes autocephalism (or radical independence), namely a factor of division rather than unity for the Orthodox Church."

- Extract from the Address by His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew at the October 2008 Synaxis of the Heads of All Orthodox Churches (From the Orthodox Observer, Synaxis Special 2008), HERE.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:46 pm 
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And I can guarantee those comments, like everything else he says, was met with reactions of "Who does he think he is saying that kind of stuff?"

This is one of the reasons why ecumenism with the Orthodox as a whole is worthless right now. They don't agree enough with each other (eg primacy) in a manner that allows for real discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:59 pm 
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Quote:
This is one of the reasons why ecumenism with the Orthodox as a whole is worthless right now. They don't agree enough with each other (eg primacy) in a manner that allows for real discussion.

And this is one of the chief reasons why the failure of the council is a failure for Christendom as a whole.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:03 pm 
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Antioch is the real problem.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:05 pm 
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I don't think we can speak of a "the" problem.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:12 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
I don't think we can speak of a "the" problem.

No, that's true enough. But unlike some of the other Churches, Antioch was never really on board because they wanted to settle their issues with Jerusalem first. (And if I understand the facts correctly, Jerusalem is at fault and Constantinople won't really do anything about it.)


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:17 pm 
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"Won't" or "can't"?


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:47 am 
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I realize how this will be viewed. A rough analogy would be Sunni and Shia.
Maybe it doesnt work and hasnt worked for a thousand years because it doesnt work. A square peg will never fit into a round hole.


This was Jesus response when the subject of primacy was approached...
“The wind blows where it wills. You hear its sound, but do not know where it is coming from and where it is going. Thus is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:8)


Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." (John 21:22)


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 Post subject: Re: 2016 EO Holy and Great Council... fizzles at the start.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:27 am 
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EtcumSpiri22-0 wrote:
I realize how this will be viewed. A rough analogy would be Sunni and Shia.
Maybe it doesn't work and hasn't worked for a thousand years because it doesn't work. A square peg will never fit into a round hole.


)


It's not even remotely analogous. The chief differences between Orthodox and Catholicism, and between the various Orthodox Churches, are cultural and political, NOT theological.


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