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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:02 am 
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marc wrote:
Verse 12 is speaking of scripture


Really? In all of chapter 4 there is not a signal mention of Scripture. Where do you see this?
In fact in verses 2 and 6 talk about how the Gospel was preached - i.e. with words, not writing:

"2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

The word is transmitted orally! Whoa!

So the Bible even states that the word can actually go beyond the written.

How ironic for you to quote a chapter that refutes your very premise.

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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:11 am 
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marc is not trying to understand, he is trying to prove the Catholic Church is wrong. He is being obstinately undiscerning.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:47 pm 
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Sometimes I wonder if marc is even attempting to prove the Church wrong. It seems more like he only wants to say anything to be a troll. :stir This much I do know: he has little interest in dialogue, less in logical debate, and none in truth. :dig


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:01 pm 
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Eh, this is fun for me. Its too easy.

Here look I got another one:

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Christianity is called a religion in opposition to marc's religious status, "no religion."
Maybe he is not Christian?

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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Well, you know that he's been told by others of his "no religion" religon that the "Catholics" aren't saved, don't know the Bible, etc.-all the same stuff many of us who were former evangelicals/fundamentalists heard when we were younger.

I'm sure he came here thinking it was one of those other forums and thought he'd have easy pickings for his amusement and to satisfy his prejudices.

And he got more than what he bargained for.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:42 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Eh, this is fun for me. Its too easy.


I agree that revealing the holes in marc's circular arguments are far too easy. But for me, that's not fun. It's like hunting in a baited field. No sport in it at all. BOH-ring! :sleep: And I absolutely refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Once I realized he was all hat and no cattle, I lost interest.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:
Eh, this is fun for me. Its too easy.

Here look I got another one:

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



I guess it could be viewed that ignorance is "easy".......actually this verse is one that really harms you most............because it describes "pure religion" as The only true religion in the sight of God, and it is this, to visit - With counsel, comfort, and relief.....NOT a political bureaucracy that is neck deep in scandals........and red tape and the building of a kingdom here on earth.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:23 pm 
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marc wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Eh, this is fun for me. Its too easy.

Here look I got another one:

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



I guess it could be viewed that ignorance is "easy".......actually this verse is one that really harms you most............because it describes "pure religion" as The only true religion in the sight of God, and it is this, to visit - With counsel, comfort, and relief.....NOT a political bureaucracy that is neck deep in scandals........and red tape and the building of a kingdom here on earth.


Two things: 1) It says pure religion is.....it doesn't say "pure religion is only this". Nor does it explicitly negate the other Scriptures that describe the hierarchy of the Church. And...

2) Following your logic, [b] it definitely doesn't say that "pure religion" is Faith alone, bible alone, "just me and Jesus", "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior", or any of the other nonsense that you assert comes from what you think is the "early church" which is nothing but a figment of your imagination against the actual evidence.

Your logic commits theological suicide by invalidating it.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:45 pm 
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marc wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Eh, this is fun for me. Its too easy.

Here look I got another one:

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



I guess it could be viewed that ignorance is "easy".......actually this verse is one that really harms you most............because it describes "pure religion" as The only true religion in the sight of God, and it is this, to visit - With counsel, comfort, and relief.....NOT a political bureaucracy that is neck deep in scandals........and red tape and the building of a kingdom here on earth.


Using some bait and switch are we?
See I got you to admit there is a true religion. What do you think of that huh?
Nothing to say about Hebrews 4?

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"The proof of love is to suffer for the one you love." -St. Pio


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:28 am 
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Alexandros wrote:
marc wrote:
Alexandros wrote:
Eh, this is fun for me. Its too easy.

Here look I got another one:

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



I guess it could be viewed that ignorance is "easy".......actually this verse is one that really harms you most............because it describes "pure religion" as The only true religion in the sight of God, and it is this, to visit - With counsel, comfort, and relief.....NOT a political bureaucracy that is neck deep in scandals........and red tape and the building of a kingdom here on earth.


Using some bait and switch are we?
See I got you to admit there is a true religion. What do you think of that huh?
Nothing to say about Hebrews 4?


As to your claim.....there's no bait and switch on my part, so you may want to try another tactic to divert the truth...........

"You" didn't get me to admit anything, simply because I never denied there was a "true religion".......What do you think of that?...Huh?

And...I already set you straight about Hebrews 4..............


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:41 am 
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Mithrandir wrote:

Two things: 1) It says pure religion is.....it doesn't say "pure religion is only this".


Obviously you don't understand the meaning of "he who has ears to hear"...do you?

Matthew 13.............

13 Jesus said.... This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:23 am 
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Whatever you say marc. You have so blown us away with your "wisdom" and exegetical expertise. :roll:

Pax definitely hit the nail on the head with his OP.

marc-show me where in scripture when Jesus, while He was alive, specifically told His Apostles to write down what He said and did and told them that they were only to go by that alone?


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:18 am 
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Mithrandir wrote:

marc-show me where in scripture when Jesus, while He was alive, specifically told His Apostles to write down what He said and did and told them that they were only to go by that alone?




Jesus showed by example......

Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same with "IT IS WRITTEN" , and with this He defeated Satan. If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan..... Scripture.

Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth......

Jesus never even refers to oral traditions in a positive way. Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.

The only times Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was condemning them: 'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:7-13)


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:12 am 
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marc wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:

marc-show me where in scripture when Jesus, while He was alive, specifically told His Apostles to write down what He said and did and told them that they were only to go by that alone?


Now for all you wrote I noticed that you didn't answer my question. The obvious answer being, "Jesus never told His disciples or the Apostles to write anything down."

But I never expected you to give me an honest answer and I knew that you would answer precisely the way you did.

So I'll address it anyway.

marc wrote:
Jesus showed by example......

Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same with "IT IS WRITTEN" , and with this He defeated Satan. If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan..... Scripture.


1)Jesus didn't need Scripture to contradict Satan. He used scripture because Satan was as well.

2)The OT WAS oral tradition before it had been written down. You protestants always forget that part.

3)If this is your argument for sola scriptura, it still proves too much. Because neither one used the NT, only the OT.

4)In any case it doesn't answer my question and neither explicitly commands sola scriptura.

marc wrote:
Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth......


You obviously forget Matthew 5, beginning with verse 17 and going forward, where Jesus begins with, "You have heard it said...." and then counters with, "But I say to you..."

And in Mark 1, where He entered the synagogue and taught, and their response was, ""What is this? A new teaching! With authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him."

A different translation I have alters the punctuation(because Koine Greek has no punctuation) in which it says, "A new teaching; and with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits and they obey Him."

So, again, you are mistaken. Christ repeatedly spoke and never told His disciples to write any of it down.

marc wrote:
Jesus never even refers to oral traditions in a positive way.

Wrong again. See above.

marc wrote:
Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.

Wrong again. He IS the truth. He used Scripture to contradict those who claimed to go by Scripture-the Sadducees, Scribes, and Pharisees.

And as I use Scripture to contradict you. But as St. Teresa of Avila pointed out that even having spoken face to face with the Lord, "they were no better off for the favor."

As Pax's OP remarked, you have a veil or your mind and heart in regards to the Scriptures. You won't open your mind to accept anything but what your own preferences and what others have told you is "real christianity"


marc wrote:
The only times Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was condemning them: 'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:7-13)


2 Thes 2:1.[15] So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

1 Thes 2:1.[13] And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

The Traditions of the Church, by word of mouth or by letter, handed down by the Apostles, is the Word of God.

"Faith alone", is a tradition of men. "Bible alone" is a tradition of men. The Traditions of the Church, are of God, received by the Church and expressed in her writings and the Liturgy.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:12 am 
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Mithrandir wrote:

Now for all you wrote I noticed that you didn't answer my question. The obvious answer being, "Jesus never told His disciples or the Apostles to write anything down."

But I never expected you to give me an honest answer and I knew that you would answer precisely the way you did.



Just a little advise here...when you say I didn't answer your question, when I obviously did, (a ploy you use time and time again), you know it would be easier just to say you don't agree with my answer....otherwise you look as if you are grasping at straws while you're gasping for air.....

What are you so afraid of in the Written Word? As I stated before.... Jesus led by example when He was in the flesh...the Holy Spirit directed the writing of Scripture when Jesus went back to the Father...........

You know, you really don't have to keep responding to me....it's clear what the problem is....you are afraid of submitting yourself to God's Word....you still feel the need for some religious group to tell you everything that you need to do in your life......tell me, are you a democrat by chance?


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:09 pm 
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marc wrote:
What are you so afraid of in the Written Word?


The written word preserved, protected, canonized by the Catholic Church?
That written Word?

Perhaps you could go to Mass and observe for yourself the reading of the written Word and Tradition - both - in the beautiful liturgy.


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:34 pm 
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marc wrote:
As to your claim.....there's no bait and switch on my part, so you may want to try another tactic to divert the truth...........


Hmm, I can answer your question but I like to focus on the matter at hand first.

Quote:
"You" didn't get me to admit anything, simply because I never denied there was a "true religion".......What do you think of that?...Huh?


I think you better change your religion status in your profile unless you are a liar.


Quote:
And...I already set you straight about Hebrews 4..............


Hebrews 4 says the word is also preached, meaning it is not merely the Bible or Jesus “in the Scriptures.” You didn't address that; the fact that it says the opposite of what you claim.
What about the non-written transmission the word of God? Huh? What about it?

marc wrote:
Jesus showed by example......

Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same with "IT IS WRITTEN" , and with this He defeated Satan. If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan..... Scripture.


1. Jesus is referring to Old Testament Scripture AND He also tells his followers to listen to the Pharisees because they sit on the seat of Moses.

According to your logic, by way of example from Jesus, we must follow some kind of authority that is composed of actual persons. Whoops.

2. Using Scripture alone, prove that the Gospel of Matthew should belong in the Bible.

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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Alexandros wrote:

I think you better change your religion status in your profile unless you are a liar.




Change to what? A title or a label of sorts? When scripture speaks of "true religion" is it speaking of Christianity only? According to your logic it is speaking of the Catholic Church...right?



Alexandros wrote:
Hebrews 4 says the word is also preached, meaning it is not merely the Bible or Jesus “in the Scriptures.” You didn't address that; the fact that it says the opposite of what you claim.
What about the non-written transmission the word of God? Huh? What about it?




Hebrews 4 doesn't say the opposite of what I stated. What part of the Word is "non written"? You have failed to say what that is......


Alexandros wrote:
According to your logic, by way of example from Jesus, we must follow some kind of authority that is composed of actual persons. Whoops.


I don't know how you came to that conclusion...... :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:18 pm 
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marc wrote:
Alexandros wrote:

I think you better change your religion status in your profile unless you are a liar.


Change to what? A title or a label of sorts? When scripture speaks of "true religion" is it speaking of Christianity only? According to your logic it is speaking of the Catholic Church...right?


Admitting that there is a “true religion” and having “no religion” in your description contradicts itself. These two terms are opposite of each other.

Change it to whatever religion you want because you yourself admit there is something called true religion.
(And yes history and logic says the true religion is the Catholic faith)



Quote:
Alexandros wrote:
Hebrews 4 says the word is also preached, meaning it is not merely the Bible or Jesus “in the Scriptures.” You didn't address that; the fact that it says the opposite of what you claim.
What about the non-written transmission the word of God? Huh? What about it?


Hebrews 4 doesn't say the opposite of what I stated.


Yeah it does. You said the word means Scripture and Jesus “in the scripture.” Hebrews says the word was preached, that means with your mouth, you know not written down?
Further, St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 says that the traditions were passed down by letter or word of mouth. That completely contradicts what you say, utterly and completely. Unless you show me a Bible verse that says all teachings of Christianity are contained in the Bible.

Quote:
What part of the Word is "non written"? You have failed to say what that is......


The Word is all truth and Jesus Christ. It is contained in the deposit of faith that was handed to the Apostles and down through Christ’s Church. This deposit of Faith is contained in oral Tradition as well as the written Scripture, which is made manifest in the teachings of the Catholic Church through the ecumenical councils and Papal pronouncements on faith and morals.

Examples:

1. St. Paul in 2 Thess. as stated above says there is are oral teachings.
2. The Church called a council in Acts 15 to resolve issues (living authority example).



Quote:
Alexandros wrote:
According to your logic, by way of example from Jesus, we must follow some kind of authority that is composed of actual persons. Whoops.


I don't know how you came to that conclusion...... :scratch:


You said Jesus appealed to Scripture “it is written.”
Jesus also says to follow the Pharisees because they sit in Moses seat.
So Jesus says to follow Scripture and to follow people who are in authority.

But when He says Scripture he meant he Old Testament, so if we follow His example today it also means the New Testament.

Likewise, when He says follow the Pharisees he means to follow their authority cornering the Old ways but now the Old ways are fulfilled in Jesus in the New Covenant and hence another authority, of actual real people, must exist in order to follow the example of Jesus.

Now, the true test is thus:

Show me Scripture verses that say Matthew is Scripture and belongs in the Bible.
Show me Scripture verses that say all Christian teaching is in the Bible alone.

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 Post subject: Re: A test for Sola Scripturists
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:18 pm 
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marc wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:

Now for all you wrote I noticed that you didn't answer my question. The obvious answer being, "Jesus never told His disciples or the Apostles to write anything down."

But I never expected you to give me an honest answer and I knew that you would answer precisely the way you did.



Just a little advise here...when you say I didn't answer your question, when I obviously did, (a ploy you use time and time again), you know it would be easier just to say you don't agree with my answer....otherwise you look as if you are grasping at straws while you're gasping for air.....


You didn't answer my question. You gave me a protestant talking point based upon your eisegesis-your reading into-of the Scripture verses taken out of context and called it an answer.

If you were honest, you would have said, "No, He didn't specifically tell His disciples to write anything down, but these verses I think support my position...."

But you didn't even address the question, just went straight into your parroting of fundamentalist ideology.

So spare me.


marc wrote:
What are you so afraid of in the Written Word?

::): marc, not that I have any need to justify myself to you, I grew up with and around evangelicals and fundamentalists, so I was raised with a great love and veneration of the Bible. What drove me from God, and eventually into atheism, was the constant practice of people who, like you, insisted that they were going on the"bible alone" yet said that the bible says things that it didn't.

Not only do I pray the Bible often, I co-lead a weekly Bible study in my parish as well as my duties as a lector proclaiming the Word at Mass.

So you can stop with the absurd remarks.

Quote:
As I stated before.... Jesus led by example when He was in the flesh...the Holy Spirit directed the writing of Scripture when Jesus went back to the Father...........

So you admit that the Holy Spirit inspired the men that Jesus had placed in charge of His Church to write down those events of His life that alone which He ordained to be written and which has been handed down (which is what the word 'tradition' means)? While retaining the rest as oral tradition.

Good. I'm glad we could agree on that.

Quote:
You know, you really don't have to keep responding to me....

What you post as your thoughts on theology are an offense against truth. You've persistently been at the least intellectually dishonest not only in your dreadfully misinformrd criticism of the Church but in your "interpretation" of the Bible as well.

It my love of God and the Bible that compels me to correct your egregious errors.

Quote:
it's clear what the problem is....you are afraid of submitting yourself to God's Word....you still feel the need for some religious group to tell you everything that you need to do in your life.


That's rich coming from someone who claims "no religion" yet adheres to just about every fundamentalist talking point that I've seen. Your parroted criticisms of the Church themselves are so obviously linked, either directly or indirectly, to Lorraine Boettner's absurd tome "Roman Catholicism"(which in every way has been soundly debunked as garbage) that you might as well be wearing yellow feathers and sitting on his shoulder.

But you go right on ahead and tell yourself whatever you need to feel better about yourself while deflecting and dodging the issue.

Quote:
.....tell me, are you a democrat by chance?

:laughhard


You must be an ichthyologist, because the number of red herrings you produce in a debate is astounding.

Let's see....devout Catholic....holds to absolutism and objectivism in regards to moral theology...ardent opponent of subjectivism and reletivism (two of your favorite philosophies)...ardent anti-progressive, anti-socialist, anti-statist.

Yes, you caught me, I'm a democrat...... :laughhard :laughhard :laughhard


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