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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:12 am 
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I'm reminded of an old philosophy joke, Mith. What is the difference in a classical, modern, and postmodern umpire?

The classical calls 'em like they are; they modern calls 'em like they see em; the post-modern makes 'em what he calls 'em.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:47 am 
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jac3510 wrote:
You are right in the main, but you've still not framed the argument correctly, CC. Look again at the argument. The major premise is:

    1. If ES is true, one can have logical certainty of salvation


But this premise is flawed in being a tautology, as "ES" by definition contains within it the notion of "certainty of salvation."
The premise is circular.

Quote:
You say you are willing to grant that for the sake of argument, and that's fine. Now, we can only two two things with that premise. We can either affirm the antecedent (modus ponens) or deny the consequent (modus tolens).


Actually, JAC, there is a third option.

Quote:
What you cannot do is deny the antecedent,


Of course one can deny the antecedent (that being the third option I mentioned) since it is stated conditionally (i.e., not as an established proposition). Whether ES is true or not (and in what sense it is true and our present knowledge of that truth) is one of the questions under discussion. You can't develop a "proof" which builds off ES being true and then claim that assertion can't be denied.

You're here doing a nice job of window-dressing in the attempt to insulate the inherent circularity from critique.

Brian

(O.K. This makes for post #100. Let's see if I'm no long a "Newbie.")


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:21 pm 
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jac3510 wrote:
In the end, I think that you are wrong because your assumptions from which you work are ultimately rooted in the authority of the Church. The whole thing strikes me as rather circular.


If I may, for the sake of the argument, grant it that you're correct. I want to know where you draw the conclusion that the Church's interpretation is any less reasonable than your personal interpretation? How do you know that the Church is using not using reason or using reason incorrectly? Or that its interpretations are unreasonable?


jac3510 wrote:
My assumptions for biblical interpretation--the framework, if you will--is that it is no different than any other piece of literature. The fact that it is inspired only means that after interpretation, I can now accept what it says to be true.


But, basing your assumption on that you intepret from the Bible that it is inspired, and that is enough for your reason to accept it divinely inspired, then by what reason do you accept the Bible yet rejct the Quran, the Book of Mormon, or the writings of Mary Baker Eddy; for all of these also claim divine inspiration?


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:46 am 
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BrianInNC wrote:
But this premise is flawed in being a tautology, as "ES" by definition contains within it the notion of "certainty of salvation."
The premise is circular.

Premises aren't circular. Arguments are. The premise is analytical. For instance, consider the following:

1. If I am unmarried, I am a bachelor
2. I am unmarried
3. Therefore I am a bachelor

There's nothing circular about the argument. (1) is true by definition, which is exactly the case in my argument. (2) is the observational premise. (3) just makes a determination against the definition.

Quote:
Of course one can deny the antecedent (that being the third option I mentioned) since it is stated conditionally (i.e., not as an established proposition). Whether ES is true or not (and in what sense it is true and our present knowledge of that truth) is one of the questions under discussion. You can't develop a "proof" which builds off ES being true and then claim that assertion can't be denied.

Denying the antecedent is a logical fallacy. Google it.


Mithrandir wrote:
If I may, for the sake of the argument, grant it that you're correct. I want to know where you draw the conclusion that the Church's interpretation is any less reasonable than your personal interpretation? How do you know that the Church is using not using reason or using reason incorrectly? Or that its interpretations are unreasonable?

I don't know it a priori. I conclude it based on a comparison of my interpretation and theirs. I say John 3:16 teaches ES. The Church says it does not. Since I think John 3:16 teaches ES, I think that anyone who denies that is wrong. The Church denies that. Therefore, the Church is wrong.

Can I be wrong? Of course I can. But I can't accept that I am without being persuaded otherwise. For someone who has accepted the premise that the Church is always right, that's an easy argument to make. I haven't accepted that premise, and therefore I would have to be shown where my exegesis is flawed. Or, alternatively, the validity of the authority of the Church would have to be demonstrated.

Quote:
But, basing your assumption on that you intepret from the Bible that it is inspired, and that is enough for your reason to accept it divinely inspired, then by what reason do you accept the Bible yet rejct the Quran, the Book of Mormon, or the writings of Mary Baker Eddy; for all of these also claim divine inspiration?

Because I understand Heb 1:1-2 to teach that the canon is closed. Since I accept the authority of Scripture, I reject all other Scriptures (e.g., the Koran). Further, those books contradict the teachings of Scripture, and therefore, either (say) the Koran or the Bible is fallible. Since I accept the infallibility of the Bible (based on the authority of Jesus, which I grant based on the historical reliability of the Resurrection), I reject the Koran's claims to infallibility over the Bible's. Such is the same with all other sacred books (including high-school biology textbooks! ;))


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:27 am 
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I see a whole lot of great dialog here and I can't say that I follow 100% of what you two are talking about, but I don't see how it is constructive to argue either side of the equation unless you are willing to live by what your personal convictions are. I think there is too much division within the church (church being all believers) and this bickering over who knows better and the whole idea of a Religous site whose purpose is to cause division among believers is evidence enough for me that the Catholic faith is more interested in self-preservation than expanding the Kingdom. So keep on fighting argueing your points. I'm pretty sure that in both of your interpretations, it says something about those who cause divisions. :nono:


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:45 pm 
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jac3510 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
If I may, for the sake of the argument, grant it that you're correct. I want to know where you draw the conclusion that the Church's interpretation is any less reasonable than your personal interpretation? How do you know that the Church is using not using reason or using reason incorrectly? Or that its interpretations are unreasonable?

I don't know it a priori. I conclude it based on a comparison of my interpretation and theirs. I say John 3:16 teaches ES. The Church says it does not. Since I think John 3:16 teaches ES, I think that anyone who denies that is wrong. The Church denies that. Therefore, the Church is wrong.


But for John 3:16 to teach eternal security shouldn't eternal security at least be mentioned in the verse? "Eternal security" does not even exist in the verse. To "believe in Jesus" means not merely intellectual assent or however you put it. Faith IS important, but we must also DO what He commanded or else our faith is a dead faith(Ja 2:14-17).

So are you basing your judgement on scripture itself? Or are you basing your judgement on what you're reading into scripture?

The Church teaches-as she has always taught-that salvation is a process or is like a trust that has been put away for us. It is a promise, but it is not a guaranteed promise. Its like your father putting your inheritance into a trust and he tells you that that inheritence belongs to you-it is yours. But there are conditions of maturity that you must meet in order to receive it: like doing your chores, doing your homework, graduating high school and college, etc.

By meeting those requirments the son receives his trust promised to him. He does not earn it(or rather he does not "work" for it)because it was a trust-it already belonged to him by the promise of the father. But if that son failed to meet those requirments, he would have lost it. So with salvation. It is a gift freely promised and freely given. But if we fail to cooperate with God's grace and mature to the fullness God requires because "nothing unclean and enter it(heaven)" then we can lose it(Matt 7:21,see also Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Phil 2:12; John 6, etc.).

jac3510 wrote:
Can I be wrong? Of course I can. But I can't accept that I am without being persuaded otherwise. For someone who has accepted the premise that the Church is always right, that's an easy argument to make. I haven't accepted that premise, and therefore I would have to be shown where my exegesis is flawed. Or, alternatively, the validity of the authority of the Church would have to be demonstrated.


But as is your "framework of interpretation" is a closed system that precludes that you will never be wrong. Hence your interpretation is always safe because it is always "reasonable"(at least according to you), and therefore assures that anything that you disagree with is not. Your invitation to "persuasion" is an illusion, so is any possibility of you considering, much less accepting, anyone else's critique of your version of what you've interpreted.

All that is left is for someone to present evidence that the Church is historically the true Church(and hence its validity stands). Because IF the Church is true then your charge of circular reasoning is no longer valid

And when one begins to demonstrate the manifold evidence of this you ignore it or dismiss it.

So it seems rather easy to admit you can be wrong when you've practically guaranteed that you can't.

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
But, basing your assumption on that you intepret from the Bible that it is inspired, and that is enough for your reason to accept it divinely inspired, then by what reason do you accept the Bible yet rejct the Quran, the Book of Mormon, or the writings of Mary Baker Eddy; for all of these also claim divine inspiration?

Because I understand Heb 1:1-2 to teach that the canon is closed.

Heb 1:[1] In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Again, shouldn't a verse actually say what you claim it says instead of you telling us it says something that it doesn't? All those verses say is that God spoke to us through men and lastly though a man-His Son. That's all.

Nowhere does those verses say that the canon is closed, nor does it even say what books comprise the canon.
jac3510 wrote:
Since I accept the authority of Scripture, I reject all other Scriptures (e.g., the Koran).

Further, those books contradict the teachings of Scripture, and therefore, either (say) the Koran or the Bible is fallible.
Since I accept the infallibility of the Bible (based on the authority of Jesus, which I grant based on the historical reliability of the Resurrection), I reject the Koran's claims to infallibility over the Bible's. Such is the same with all other sacred books (including high-school biology textbooks! ;))


But you accept the authority of Scripture on the authority of Scripture? You're begging the question.

To say that those other books contradict the teachings of scripture simply means that you assume the conclusion that Christianity is correct. You base this conclusion on the authority of Scripture. Which again begs the question.

If you base the assumption of Jesus' authority on the "historical reliability of the Resurrection", where do you obtain your knowledge of the Resurrection? Either from others or from Scripture? If from the authority of Scripture, then again you beg the question. If from others then you commit the same error that you say we do.

Biology textbooks do not derive their authority from themselves, nor do history textbooks. They derive their authority and authenticity from an authoritative body that formed the work. Ancient historical works do not even derive their authority from themselves, because without someone in a position of authority to confirm their authenticity they would not be considered good "historical" sources.

There must be an authority outside of the works themselves to confirm their authenticity.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Mithrandir wrote:
But for John 3:16 to teach eternal security shouldn't eternal security at least be mentioned in the verse? "Eternal security" does not even exist in the verse. To "believe in Jesus" means not merely intellectual assent or however you put it. Faith IS important, but we must also DO what He commanded or else our faith is a dead faith(Ja 2:14-17).

So are you basing your judgement on scripture itself? Or are you basing your judgement on what you're reading into scripture?

Eternal security is just the doctrinal name for what Scripture does teach, namely, that every single person who believes has everlasting life and will never perish. The "has" is present tense, meaning they have it now. Eternal life never ends. Thus, it can never be lost (less the person would become dead). Therefore, eternal life cannot be lost. That's just ES, where ES is shorthand for the doctrine.

Quote:
The Church teaches-as she has always taught-that salvation is a process or is like a trust that has been put away for us. It is a promise, but it is not a guaranteed promise. Its like your father putting your inheritance into a trust and he tells you that that inheritence belongs to you-it is yours. But there are conditions of maturity that you must meet in order to receive it: like doing your chores, doing your homework, graduating high school and college, etc.

By meeting those requirments the son receives his trust promised to him. He does not earn it(or rather he does not "work" for it)because it was a trust-it already belonged to him by the promise of the father. But if that son failed to meet those requirments, he would have lost it. So with salvation. It is a gift freely promised and freely given. But if we fail to cooperate with God's grace and mature to the fullness God requires because "nothing unclean and enter it(heaven)" then we can lose it(Matt 7:21,see also Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Phil 2:12; John 6, etc.).

Yes, the Church has always taught those things. But the Church is wrong.

Quote:
But as is your "framework of interpretation" is a closed system that precludes that you will never be wrong. Hence your interpretation is always safe because it is always "reasonable"(at least according to you), and therefore assures that anything that you disagree with is not. Your invitation to "persuasion" is an illusion, so is any possibility of you considering, much less accepting, anyone else's critique of your version of what you've interpreted.

All that is left is for someone to present evidence that the Church is historically the true Church(and hence its validity stands). Because IF the Church is true then your charge of circular reasoning is no longer valid

And when one begins to demonstrate the manifold evidence of this you ignore it or dismiss it.

So it seems rather easy to admit you can be wrong when you've practically guaranteed that you can't.

I've had my mind changed about plenty of interpretations before. I imagine it will happen again in the future. If you think my interpretation of any given passage is wrong, we can talk about it. If you can show me that your interpretation is more reasonable than mine, I'll be glad to change my view.

Quote:
Heb 1:[1] In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Again, shouldn't a verse actually say what you claim it says instead of you telling us it says something that it doesn't? All those verses say is that God spoke to us through men and lastly though a man-His Son. That's all.

Nowhere does those verses say that the canon is closed, nor does it even say what books comprise the canon.

The phrase "has spoken" is in the perfect tense, whereas the word "spoke" is in the aorist. "But" is a strong contrast. The point the author is making is that although God spoke at one time piecemeal, He has now spoken completely and fully in Christ Jesus. There is nothing left to say, so to speak. Hence, the Canon (the revelation concerning God in Jesus Christ) is completed.

Quote:
But you accept the authority of Scripture on the authority of Scripture? You're begging the question.

To say that those other books contradict the teachings of scripture simply means that you assume the conclusion that Christianity is correct. You base this conclusion on the authority of Scripture. Which again begs the question.

No, I get it from the authority of Jesus, which I derive from historical documents. Jesus tells me some historical documents are inspired, and therefore, I believe Him. Those documents under inspiration claim they are the only inspired documents, therefore I believe them.

Quote:
If you base the assumption of Jesus' authority on the "historical reliability of the Resurrection", where do you obtain your knowledge of the Resurrection? Either from others or from Scripture? If from the authority of Scripture, then again you beg the question. If from others then you commit the same error that you say we do.

I don't get it from the authority of Scripture. I get it from the historical value of certain first century documents, which include books that I have come to regard as Scripture (e.g., Matthew) and others I do not (e.g., Josephus).

Quote:
Biology textbooks do not derive their authority from themselves, nor do history textbooks. They derive their authority and authenticity from an authoritative body that formed the work. Ancient historical works do not even derive their authority from themselves, because without someone in a position of authority to confirm their authenticity they would not be considered good "historical" sources.

There must be an authority outside of the works themselves to confirm their authenticity.

I'm glad you think that biology textbooks get their authority from the scientific community. I would not agree with that. :)


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:51 pm 
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jac3510 wrote:
Denying the antecedent is a logical fallacy. Google it.


And the fallacy of tautology is a logical fallacy as well. The fallacy exists when the conclusion of a statement is inherent within its own premise.

    1. If ES is true, one can have logical certainty of salvation.

What does "Eternal Security" mean if other than "a believer's present certitude of his/her eternal destiny with God in heaven?" If by ES you mean that or anything of like import, however worded, then "logical certain of salvation" merely restates the premise. That is a tautology.

And if you want to understand why the fallacy of tautology is considered a species of circular reasoning, you can Google it.

Quote:
1. If I am unmarried, I am a bachelor


This statement is also flawed because the conclusion is true only upon the unstated conditions that the person is male and of sufficient age for marriage. But without such external information the statement isn't necesarily true. You're floundering here.

But this is much a sideshow from the topic. On an earlier post to me you stated:

Quote:
Let's table the discussion on why I think ES is true. I don't want to derail the thread. If you want my take on James 2:14ff, Heb 6:4-6; and Heb 10:26-31, see my blog, which I haven't updated in forever, haha.


There have been a number of "if you want my take on ES, start a new thread" comments to others.

I think taking this off the table may be fitting since the OP discussion regarding that other person has long since been dormant. A new thread is forthcoming.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:26 pm 
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JCMiller wrote:
I see a whole lot of great dialog here and I can't say that I follow 100% of what you two are talking about, but I don't see how it is constructive to argue either side of the equation unless you are willing to live by what your personal convictions are. I think there is too much division within the church (church being all believers) and this bickering over who knows better and the whole idea of a Religous site whose purpose is to cause division among believers is evidence enough for me that the Catholic faith is more interested in self-preservation than expanding the Kingdom. So keep on fighting argueing your points. I'm pretty sure that in both of your interpretations, it says something about those who cause divisions. :nono:


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:49 pm 
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BrianInNC wrote:
jac3510 wrote:
Denying the antecedent is a logical fallacy. Google it.


And the fallacy of tautology is a logical fallacy as well. The fallacy exists when the conclusion of a statement is inherent within its own premise.

    1. If ES is true, one can have logical certainty of salvation.

What does "Eternal Security" mean if other than "a believer's present certitude of his/her eternal destiny with God in heaven?" If by ES you mean that or anything of like import, however worded, then "logical certain of salvation" merely restates the premise. That is a tautology.

And if you want to understand why the fallacy of tautology is considered a species of circular reasoning, you can Google it.

Quote:
1. If I am unmarried, I am a bachelor


This statement is also flawed because the conclusion is true only upon the unstated conditions that the person is male and of sufficient age for marriage. But without such external information the statement isn't necesarily true. You're floundering here.

But this is much a sideshow from the topic. On an earlier post to me you stated:

Quote:
Let's table the discussion on why I think ES is true. I don't want to derail the thread. If you want my take on James 2:14ff, Heb 6:4-6; and Heb 10:26-31, see my blog, which I haven't updated in forever, haha.


There have been a number of "if you want my take on ES, start a new thread" comments to others.

I think taking this off the table may be fitting since the OP discussion regarding that other person has long since been dormant. A new thread is forthcoming.

Can you distinguish a tautology from an analytical statement?


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:02 pm 
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jac3510 wrote:
Eternal security is just the doctrinal name for what Scripture does teach, namely, that every single person who believes has everlasting life and will never perish. The "has" is present tense, meaning they have it now. Eternal life never ends. Thus, it can never be lost (less the person would become dead). Therefore, eternal life cannot be lost. That's just ES, where ES is shorthand for the doctrine.

……..I don't get it from the authority of Scripture. I get it from the historical value of certain first century documents, which include books that I have come to regard as Scripture (e.g., Matthew) and others I do not (e.g., Josephus).


The Church regards itself as a ‘pilgrim’ in life. “The pilgrim church on earth…” and salvation in that light is taken from the words of scripture on the subject which together give us that meaning.

From Matthew 16 24-27… “Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.”

In this passage we are given the image of ‘taking up our cross and following’. We are also told that we are yet to be judged on the last day… for what we have ‘done’. It doesn’t make sense that there is need for a final judgement for what we have done if we’ve secured our salvation already.

From 1 Corinthians 5 6-10 Paul says to the faithful… “ Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Again, we are told we are away from the Lord while we inhabit our earthly body and we are yet to appear in a judgement scenario where it will depend on how we’ve pleased God in this passage of earthly life.

In Hebrews 9 27-28… “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

In Hebrews we are told that Jesus will bring the salvation when he comes again for those passing through that judgement at that time.

We know we are saved by virtue of Jesus death for our sins, but in our separation from Jesus in earthly life we remain at risk. What he asked us to do til then was ‘take up our cross and follow Him’.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:44 pm 
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jac3510 wrote:
Can you distinguish a tautology from an analytical statement?


Yes, I can. But since you don't seem inclined to address my point that your conclusion "logical certainty of salvation" simply is a restatement of the definition of "ES" (your premise), making your statement tautological and analytically meaningless, I have no interest in continuing this sideshow. I'm attempting to move the topic forward in the other thread. You can join there or not as you see fit.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:55 pm 
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BrianInNC wrote:
jac3510 wrote:
Can you distinguish a tautology from an analytical statement?


Yes, I can. But since you don't seem inclined to address my point that your conclusion "logical certainty of salvation" simply is a restatement of the definition of "ES" (your premise), making your statement tautological and analytically meaningless, I have no interest in continuing this sideshow. I'm attempting to move the topic forward in the other thread. You can join there or not as you see fit.

If you think a tautology is identical to an analytical statement, then you obviously don't know the difference. There's no circularity in the argument I presented, much less a tautology. Invite anyone here -- Obi, PED, gherkin, FJ, whoever, to look at it if you like. They'll all certainly disagree with the argument, but not on the grounds you are charging.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:29 pm 
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jac3510 wrote:
Mithrandir wrote:
But for John 3:16 to teach eternal security shouldn't eternal security at least be mentioned in the verse? "Eternal security" does not even exist in the verse. To "believe in Jesus" means not merely intellectual assent or however you put it. Faith IS important, but we must also DO what He commanded or else our faith is a dead faith(Ja 2:14-17).

So are you basing your judgement on scripture itself? Or are you basing your judgement on what you're reading into scripture?

Eternal security is just the doctrinal name for what Scripture does teach, namely, that every single person who believes has everlasting life and will never perish. The "has" is present tense, meaning they have it now. Eternal life never ends.


You're right to a point. By being baptized I have been saved(Mk 16:16). By continuing in the faith and living my life in cooperation with God's grace He is working in me-thus I am being saved(1Cor 1:18; 2Cor 2:15). And once my life on earth is complete and as I continued in the faith I will be saved(Matt 24:13).

But it does not follow that I can't lose salvation by forfeiting faith(Heb 10:24-29). For is by being faithful we are saved, then by being faithless we are also saved so long as we had faith at some time before, and that one act guarantees eternal security? The gift of "eternal life" here consists of receiving the divine life of God through grace(2Pet 1:4) and it is a first installment(2Cor 5:5). Ity is not the fullness of eternal life that we will receive when the heavens and earth are renewed on the last Day. Therefore we most definitely CAN lose it.

Your version sounds dreadfully like the sin of presupmtion.

jac3510 wrote:
Thus, it can never be lost (less the person would become dead). Therefore, eternal life cannot be lost. That's just ES, where ES is shorthand for the doctrine.

Eternal life cannot be lost, but neither is our salvation complete until we die(see above Scriptures). So long as we are here on earth we are the Israelites in the desert during their 40 years. It is our time of testing. And with the testing comes the possibility that if we are faithless and disobedient we will fail.

ES says that life is not a test. To insist upon ES is to say that spiritual warfare is an illusion because there's no need to fight or perservere-your salvation is guaranteed.

It is a lie.

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
The Church teaches-as she has always taught-that salvation is a process or is like a trust that has been put away for us. It is a promise, but it is not a guaranteed promise. Its like your father putting your inheritance into a trust and he tells you that that inheritence belongs to you-it is yours. But there are conditions of maturity that you must meet in order to receive it: like doing your chores, doing your homework, graduating high school and college, etc.

By meeting those requirments the son receives his trust promised to him. He does not earn it(or rather he does not "work" for it)because it was a trust-it already belonged to him by the promise of the father. But if that son failed to meet those requirments, he would have lost it. So with salvation. It is a gift freely promised and freely given. But if we fail to cooperate with God's grace and mature to the fullness God requires because "nothing unclean and enter it(heaven)" then we can lose it(Matt 7:21,see also Matt 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Phil 2:12; John 6, etc.).

Yes, the Church has always taught those things. But the Church is wrong.

That's not a reason. That's an opinion.

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
But as is your "framework of interpretation" is a closed system that precludes that you will never be wrong. Hence your interpretation is always safe because it is always "reasonable"(at least according to you), and therefore assures that anything that you disagree with is not. Your invitation to "persuasion" is an illusion, so is any possibility of you considering, much less accepting, anyone else's critique of your version of what you've interpreted.

All that is left is for someone to present evidence that the Church is historically the true Church(and hence its validity stands). Because IF the Church is true then your charge of circular reasoning is no longer valid

And when one begins to demonstrate the manifold evidence of this you ignore it or dismiss it.

So it seems rather easy to admit you can be wrong when you've practically guaranteed that you can't.

I've had my mind changed about plenty of interpretations before.

When's the last time it happened?
jac3510 wrote:
I imagine it will happen again in the future. If you think my interpretation of any given passage is wrong, we can talk about it.

Well, I might but we've been down that road before.
jac3510 wrote:
If you can show me that your interpretation is more reasonable than mine, I'll be glad to change my view.

Someone who doesn't bat an eye at making such leaps beyond the text to conclusions that in no way follow from the context should have no problem explaining away any objection to his opinions. Your interpretation follows from your theology, not from the text itself. That is obvious by reading your blog.
jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
Heb 1:[1] In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Again, shouldn't a verse actually say what you claim it says instead of you telling us it says something that it doesn't? All those verses say is that God spoke to us through men and lastly though a man-His Son. That's all.

Nowhere does those verses say that the canon is closed, nor does it even say what books comprise the canon.

The phrase "has spoken" is in the perfect tense, whereas the word "spoke" is in the aorist. "But" is a strong contrast. The point the author is making is that although God spoke at one time piecemeal, He has now spoken completely and fully in Christ Jesus. There is nothing left to say, so to speak. Hence, the Canon (the revelation concerning God in Jesus Christ) is completed.

The problem in this is that your knowledge of this is based on the authority of Scripture. IOW everything that God wanted to say He said through Jesus. But the question is that what did Jesus say?

Are you saying that everything Jesus said is written down in the Bible?
jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
But you accept the authority of Scripture on the authority of Scripture? You're begging the question.

To say that those other books contradict the teachings of scripture simply means that you assume the conclusion that Christianity is correct. You base this conclusion on the authority of Scripture. Which again begs the question.

No, I get it from the authority of Jesus, which I derive from historical documents.


The only "historical documents" that speak to Jesus' life and which are accepted as true are the Scriptures. And the only way to come to this conclusion of the authority of Jesus is to presume on the authority of Scripture. Hence you're still begging the question.

jac3510 wrote:
Jesus tells me some historical documents are inspired, and therefore, I believe Him.

:scratch:
Mohammed tells muslims that the Quran is inspired because he heard God tell him to "recite". Joseph Smith told Mormons that he is Jesus' prophet and that his book is inspired because it came from the angel Gabriel.

It's funny how fuzzy the line is between "locutions" and self-deceptions

jac3510 wrote:
Those documents under inspiration claim they are the only inspired documents, therefore I believe them.


Again, many historical documents claim divine inspiriation and that they're the only ones. You're still begging the question.

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
If you base the assumption of Jesus' authority on the "historical reliability of the Resurrection", where do you obtain your knowledge of the Resurrection? Either from others or from Scripture? If from the authority of Scripture, then again you beg the question. If from others then you commit the same error that you say we do.

I don't get it from the authority of Scripture. I get it from the historical value of certain first century documents, which include books that I have come to regard as Scripture (e.g., Matthew) and others I do not (e.g., Josephus).

"Historical value" is a subjective opinion. IOW you place value on the work based on how you see it supporting or not supporting your view. Josephus doesn't mention seeing Jesus being resurrected. He barely mentions Jesus in passing as a "rabbi" who was killed by the Romans under the charge of stirring rebellion. Nowhwere in his works does he treat with the authority of Scripture.

You would do better by mentioning Tacitus and his work "Annals". But he wrote this much, much later(early 2nd century, he was 8 when Rome burned in 63 ad). But neither did Tacitus mention anything about Scripture or Jesus' resurrection. He only states that Christians were followers of a "Christus" which Pontius Pilate put to death.

I have given you many writings from early Christians not only from the first century, but also from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries to demonstrate continuity of belief. Yet you chose to ignore and dismiss them, calling it "preaching".

That is where I base the authority of not only Scripture but also the Church.

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
Biology textbooks do not derive their authority from themselves, nor do history textbooks. They derive their authority and authenticity from an authoritative body that formed the work. Ancient historical works do not even derive their authority from themselves, because without someone in a position of authority to confirm their authenticity they would not be considered good "historical" sources.

There must be an authority outside of the works themselves to confirm their authenticity.

I'm glad you think that biology textbooks get their authority from the scientific community. I would not agree with that. :)


Then you're not approaching it objectively.

Im sure you'll say that the textbooks are true because the information in them is based on scientific truths. By saying that you beg the question.

Someone had to discover those truths. They had to test them via SM, verify their conclusions and publish them. Hence others did the same because unless the result is repeatable then its is not scientifically certain.

Then whoever publishes the books had to authoritatively verify that the parts that were going to be published in the textbook were true.

And finally it cannot even be used in classes unless the authority that runs those classes verifies that the textbook is correct in what it says.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:27 am 
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Mithrandir wrote:
You're right to a point. By being baptized I have been saved(Mk 16:16). By continuing in the faith and living my life in cooperation with God's grace He is working in me-thus I am being saved(1Cor 1:18; 2Cor 2:15). And once my life on earth is complete and as I continued in the faith I will be saved(Matt 24:13).

But it does not follow that I can't lose it by forfeiting faith. And nowhere does scripture support your assertion.

Yes it does. Jesus says if I believe I will never perish. I take "never" to mean just that. Never.

Quote:
Eternal life cannot be lost, but neither is our salvation complete until we die(see above Scriptures). So long as we are here on earth we are the Israelites in the desert during their 40 years. It is our time of testing. And with the testing comes the fact that we may fail.

ES says that life is not a test. To you spiritual warfare is an illusion because there's no need to fight-your salvation is guaranteed. It is a lie.

I agree that salvation is not complete until we die, but for the one who has believed, it is guaranteed to be completed at death.

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That's not a reason. That's an opinion.

It's a conclusion.

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When's the last time it happened?

About six months ago best I can remember. K.C. Klarner or Tom Eckman may be able to remind me of a more recent change. What about you?

Quote:
Someone who doesn't bat an eye at making such leaps beyond the text to conclusions that in no way follow from the context should have no problem explaining away any objection to his opinions. Your interpretation follows from your theology, not from the text itself. That is obvious by reading your blog.

Assertions without arguments . . .

Quote:
The problem in this is that your knowledge of this is based on the authority of Scripture. IOW everything that God wanted to say He said through Jesus. But the question is that what did Jesus say?

Are you saying that everything Jesus said is written down in the Bible?

That the canon is closed? Yes, that's based on the authority of Scripture. Your point?

Quote:
The only "historical documents" that speak to Jesus' life and which are accepted as true are the Scriptures. And the only way to come to this conclusion of the authority of Jesus is to presume on the authority of Scripture. Hence you're still begging the question.

You can read the texts of what we call the NT as history without an opinion one way or another concerning the inspiration. Pinchas Lapide, for instance, was a Jewish scholar who concluded from the historical evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. He died denying that Jesus is the Christ. He certainly died denying the inspiration of the New Testament. His book is titled The Resurrection of Jesus: A Jewish Perspective if you'd like to read it. Pretty decent book.

Quote:
:scratch:
Mohammed tells muslims that the Quran is inspired because he heard God tell him to "recite". Joseph Smith told Mormons that he is Jesus' prophet and that his book is inspired because it came from the angel Gabriel.

It's funny how fuzzy the line is between "locutions" and self-deceptions

But I don't believe Mohammed or Joseph Smith. Neither of them claimed to be God and proved it by fulfilling biblical prophecy and rising from the dead.

Quote:
Again, many historical documents claim divine inspiriation and that they're the only ones. You're still begging the question.

And again, you can read them as history without reading them as divinely inspired. Are you under the mistaken impression that only Christians can read and study the NT texts and learn something about the life and beliefs of Jesus?

Quote:
"Historical value" is a subjective opinion. IOW you place value on the work based on how you see it supporting or not supporting your view. Josephus doesn't mention seeing Jesus being resurrected. He barely mentions Jesus in passing as a "rabbi" who was killed by the Romans under the charge of stirring rebellion. Nowhwere in his works does he treat with the authority of Scripture.

You would do better by mentioning Tacitus and his work "Annals". But he wrote this much, much later(early 2nd century, he was 8 when Rome burned in 63 ad). But neither did Tacitus mention anything about Scripture or Jesus' resurrection. He only states that Christians were followers of a "Christus" which Pontius Pilate put to death.

I have given you many writings from early Christians not only from the first century, but also from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries to demonstrate continuity of belief. Yet you chose to ignore and dismiss them, calling it "preaching".

That is where I base the authority of not only Scripture but also the Church.

Historical value is not subjective. Primary sources are more valuable than secondary sources. Once you get into historical explanations, there are firm principles by which historians abide. I find McCullagh's list particularly helpful:

    (1)The hypothesis, together with other true statements, must imply further statements describing present, observable data.
    (2) The hypothesis must have greater explanatory scope (that is, simply a greater variety of observable data) than rival hypotheses.
    (3) The hypothesis must have greater explanatory power (that is, make the observable data more probable) than rival hypotheses.
    (4) The hypothesis must be more plausible (that is, be implied by a greater variety of accepted truths, and its negation implied by fewer accepted truths) than rival hypotheses.
    (5) The hypothesis must be less ad hoc (that is, include fewer new suppositions about the past not already implied by existing knowledge) than rival hypotheses.
    (6) The hypothesis must be disconfirmed by fewer accepted beliefs (that is, when conjoined with accepted truths, imply fewer false statements) than rival hypotheses.
    (7) The hypothesis must so exceed its revivals in fulfilling conditions (2) through (6) that there is little chance of a rival hypothesis, after further investigation, exceeding it in meeting these conditions

    (C. Behan McCullagh, Justifying Historical Description (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1984), 19.

An objective assessment of the historical evidence for Christ's resurrection and an unbiased application of the normal canons of historiography make it very difficult not to conclude that Jesus physically rose from the dead. I wrote a brief paper on it here if you would like to read it (way back in 2008).

I suggest you be more careful about what you assert can and can't be known about Christ apart from special revelation.

Quote:
Then you're not approaching it objectively.

Im sure you'll say that the textbooks are true because the information in them is based on scientific truths. By saying that you beg the question.

Someone had to discover those truths. They had to test them via SM, verify their conclusions and publish them. Hence others did the same because unless the result is repeatable then its is not scientifically certain.

Then whoever publishes the books had to authoritatively verify that the parts that were going to be published in the textbook were true.

And finally it cannot even be used in classes unless the authority that runs those classes verifies that the textbook is correct in what it says.

And I can, in principle, go out and test anything in those books. Just because someone discovered those truths doesn't make that person authoritative. They may KNOW more than me, but that's just an epistemological point. I may do well to listen to them given their advanced knowledge, but that doesn't mean they have any inherent authority.

Now, when you say that the Church is authoritative, if all you mean is that they have achieved a level of expertise in interpretation and nothing more, then fine. That's a rather boring claim that I can whole heartedly agree with. But that's not what you mean when you say the Church is authoritative. So you're just equivocating on your argument here.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:42 am 
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jac3510 wrote:
Yes it does. Jesus says if I believe I will never perish. I take "never" to mean just that. Never.

No, it does not follow that I can't lose salvation by forfeiting faith(Heb 10:24-29). For if it is by being faithful we are saved, then by being faithless we are also saved so long as we had faith at some time before, and that one act guarantees eternal security?

The gift of "eternal life" here consists of receiving the divine life of God through grace(2Pet 1:4) and it is a first installment(2Cor 5:5). It is not the fullness of eternal life that we will receive when the heavens and earth are renewed on the last Day. Therefore we most definitely CAN lose it.

Your version sounds dreadfully like the sin of presupmtion.

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
Eternal life cannot be lost, but neither is our salvation complete until we die(see above Scriptures). So long as we are here on earth we are the Israelites in the desert during their 40 years. It is our time of testing. And with the testing comes the fact that we may fail.

ES says that life is not a test. To you spiritual warfare is an illusion because there's no need to fight-your salvation is guaranteed. It is a lie.

I agree that salvation is not complete until we die, but for the one who has believed, it is guaranteed to be completed at death.


But what of those who believed once and then later did not? Are we to assume that apostates are guaranteed salvation as well?

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
That's not a reason. That's an opinion.

It's a conclusion.

Well its a false conclusion based on the assumption that your "framework" is superior to anything you don't agree with.
jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
When's the last time it happened?

About six months ago best I can remember. K.C. Klarner or Tom Eckman may be able to remind me of a more recent change. What about you?

Me? Why should an intellectual giant as yourself care about me?

Are we talking about a real substantive change or just a vague nuanced change?
jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
Someone who doesn't bat an eye at making such leaps beyond the text to conclusions that in no way follow from the context should have no problem explaining away any objection to his opinions. Your interpretation follows from your theology, not from the text itself. That is obvious by reading your blog.

Assertions without arguments . . .

Concluions based on observations...
jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
The problem in this is that your knowledge of this is based on the authority of Scripture. IOW everything that God wanted to say He said through Jesus. But the question is that what did Jesus say?

Are you saying that everything Jesus said is written down in the Bible?

That the canon is closed? Yes, that's based on the authority of Scripture. Your point?

If "then canon is closed" means that everything Jesus said and did is in the Bible, then how do you explain John 20:30-31 or Acts 1:2-3?

How do you explain 2 Then 2:15? What are the traditions Paul taught by word of mouth?
jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
The only "historical documents" that speak to Jesus' life and which are accepted as true are the Scriptures. And the only way to come to this conclusion of the authority of Jesus is to presume on the authority of Scripture. Hence you're still begging the question.

You can read the texts of what we call the NT as history without an opinion one way or another concerning the inspiration.


Yes it is possible you can, but let's be frank here. Nobody goes to the NT because of mere historic curiosity. Everyone knows what Christianity is and they know what the NT is about. So already they approach the NT with a preconceived notions and/or their prejudices right behind them.

Somebody told you about Jesus the Christ before you ever opened a Bible. That person told you that Jesus is the Son of God, that He loves you so much that He died for you on a cross, and that if you accept Him as your personal Savior then you'll be saved. THEN they handed you a Bible & told you it was the inspired Word of God.

It may have later given you a certitude of inspiration, but you received the knowledge of its inspiration not from the work itself but from the authority you gave to whoever evangelized you.

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
"Historical value" is a subjective opinion. IOW you place value on the work based on how you see it supporting or not supporting your view. Josephus doesn't mention seeing Jesus being resurrected. He barely mentions Jesus in passing as a "rabbi" who was killed by the Romans under the charge of stirring rebellion. Nowhwere in his works does he treat with the authority of Scripture.

You would do better by mentioning Tacitus and his work "Annals". But he wrote this much, much later(early 2nd century, he was 8 when Rome burned in 63 ad). But neither did Tacitus mention anything about Scripture or Jesus' resurrection. He only states that Christians were followers of a "Christus" which Pontius Pilate put to death.

I have given you many writings from early Christians not only from the first century, but also from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries to demonstrate continuity of belief. Yet you chose to ignore and dismiss them, calling it "preaching".

That is where I base the authority of not only Scripture but also the Church.

Historical value is not subjective. Primary sources are more valuable than secondary sources. Once you get into historical explanations, there are firm principles by which historians abide. I find McCullagh's list particularly helpful:


So them you're willing to accept certain authority outside of the Bible, so long as it doesn't conflict with your theology?

jac3510 wrote:
Quote:
Then you're not approaching it objectively.

Im sure you'll say that the textbooks are true because the information in them is based on scientific truths. By saying that you beg the question.

Someone had to discover those truths. They had to test them via SM, verify their conclusions and publish them. Hence others did the same because unless the result is repeatable then its is not scientifically certain.

Then whoever publishes the books had to authoritatively verify that the parts that were going to be published in the textbook were true.

And finally it cannot even be used in classes unless the authority that runs those classes verifies that the textbook is correct in what it says.

And I can, in principle, go out and test anything in those books. Just because someone discovered those truths doesn't make that person authoritative. They may KNOW more than me, but that's just an epistemological point. I may do well to listen to them given their advanced knowledge, but that doesn't mean they have any inherent authority.


But they had authority in determining what was contained in that work. By testing it you merely proved that they were correct and that your skepticism was unfounded. As far as "inherent" authority that's why they're called analogies.

jac3510 wrote:
Now, when you say that the Church is authoritative, if all you mean is that they have achieved a level of expertise in interpretation and nothing more, then fine. That's a rather boring claim that I can whole heartedly agree with. But that's not what you mean when you say the Church is authoritative. So you're just equivocating on your argument here.


No, not at all. I mean what the Bible means by the Church's authority, which is what the Church has through numerous dialogues and Councils determined as Jesus' and the Apostles true meaning and therefore God's will.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:56 am 
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Mithrandir wrote:
No, it does not follow that I can't lose salvation by forfeiting faith(Heb 10:24-29). For if it is by being faithful we are saved, then by being faithless we are also saved so long as we had faith at some time before, and that one act guarantees eternal security?

The gift of "eternal life" here consists of receiving the divine life of God through grace(2Pet 1:4) and it is a first installment(2Cor 5:5). It is not the fullness of eternal life that we will receive when the heavens and earth are renewed on the last Day. Therefore we most definitely CAN lose it.

Your version sounds dreadfully like the sin of presupmtion.

There's the typical eisogesis that everyone here is so addicted, too. I'm starting to wonder if that's just the methodology prevalent on this board or if that's the official Catholic way. If so, that'd just be one more reason it would be impossible for me to ever be a Catholic. If it's not official, then you're just "doing it wrong."

Quote:
But what of those who believed once and then later did not? Are we to assume that apostates are guaranteed salvation as well?

If they believed, they are guaranteed eternal life, regardless of their future actions, states, etc.

Quote:
Well its a false conclusion based on the assumption that your "framework" is superior to anything you don't agree with.

We have an entire thread about the validity of the framework.

Quote:
Me? Why should an intellectual giant as yourself care about me?

Are we talking about a real substantive change or just a vague nuanced change?

Why should a Catholic such as you who has direct access to the Truth care about me? Goose and gander and all that, or are you too good to answer your own questions?

And to answer your second question, substantive. Prior to that was about two years when I went through a major shift in my thinking, which resulted in the paper I linked to earlier.

Quote:
Concluions based on observations...

Conclusions are arguments. You've given none.

Quote:
If "then canon is closed" means that everything Jesus said and did is in the Bible, then how do you explain John 20:30-31 or Acts 1:2-3?

How do you explain 2 Then 2:15? What are the traditions Paul taught by word of mouth?

I never said everything Jesus said or did is in the Bible. I said the revelation concerning God in Christ is complete in Him. Therefore, no other revelation is necessary.

Quote:
Yes it is possible you can, but let's be frank here. Nobody goes to the NT because of mere historic curiosity. Everyone knows what Christianity is and they know what the NT is about. So already they approach the NT with a preconceived notions and/or their prejudices right behind them.

Somebody told you about Jesus the Christ before you ever opened a Bible. That person told you that Jesus is the Son of God, that He loves you so much that He died for you on a cross, and that if you accept Him as your personal Savior then you'll be saved. THEN they handed you a Bible & told you it was the inspired Word of God.

It may have later given you a certitude of inspiration, but you received the knowledge of its inspiration not from the work itself but from the authority you gave to whoever evangelized you.

That's very naive.

Quote:
So them you're willing to accept certain authority outside of the Bible, so long as it doesn't conflict with your theology?

I don't take McCullagh as authoritative. I take him as presenting a well reasoned argument as to what makes a historical hypothesis reasonable and what doesn't.

Quote:
]But they had authority in determining what was contained in that work. By testing it you merely proved that they were correct and that your skepticism was unfounded. As far as "inherent" authority that's why they're called analogies.

You're equivocating on "authority" again. I have that kind of "authority" to determine what I write in my posts. That authority doesn't command your assent, anymore than the textbook writers' authority commands my assent. You believe that the Church's authority commands your assent, and thus the equivocation.

Quote:
No, not at all. I mean what the Bible means by the Church's authority, which is what the Church has through numerous dialogues and Councils determined as Jesus' and the Apostles true meaning and therefore God's will.

Which is not what you mean by a textbook's writer authority. Just equivocation.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:01 am 
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jac3510 wrote:
Because I understand Heb 1:1-2 to teach that the canon is closed.
How so? Is Hebrews the youngest book of the New Testament? If it isn’t, you would have to say that all subsequent documents shouldn’t be part of the canon. I think that you are confusing revelation with Scripture, restricting the former to the latter, and logically ending up with having to deny the canonicity of books like 1., 2. and 3. John, 1. and 2. Peter, the Revelation of John, etc.

jac3510 wrote:
Since I accept the authority of Scripture, I reject all other Scriptures (e.g., the Koran).
As do I.

jac3510 wrote:
I accept the infallibility of the Bible (based on the authority of Jesus, which I grant based on the historical reliability of the Resurrection).
But the fact of his resurrection can also be used as an argument for the authority of the Church. If he established the Church, it can rightly be said to be authoritative, including in questions of interpretation. In the same way it is not given to anyone to interpret a law or a constitution for himself.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:04 am 
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I hate it when people misuse words, the Bible is not, and cannot be 'infallible', the Bible is 'inerrant', there's a difference, and it is not a small one. To be infallible you have to be an agent responsible for making decisions.


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 Post subject: Re: How to refute once saved always saved
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:20 am 
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jac3510 wrote:
esus tells me some historical documents are inspired, and therefore, I believe Him. Those documents under inspiration claim they are the only inspired documents, therefore I believe them.
And where, exactly, does Jesus say that the Bible is inspired? And if he does, where did he present you with the canon of Scripture? Where does Jesus say that "the book of Acts is inspired"? Or "the book of Hebrews is inspired"? Or "the book of Jude is inspired"? I cannot see any place that Christ has said anything about the inspiration of any books, except perhaps (certain parts of) the Old Testament.

You cannot point to 2. Timothy 3:16, as this does not provide us with any definition of what Scriptures constitute the Canon. (And, given its author, it had to be written in the 60s, making older than most of the New Testament.) In fact, when St. Paul wrote about the Church, to St. Timothy, he said that she is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1. Timothy 3:15)

It could be that Christ has revealed this to you privately, but I haven't gotten any list of books from him directly.


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