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 Post subject: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:16 am 
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X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:00 am 
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pax wrote:
X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm



Can you defend the doctrine from scripture?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:57 am 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm



Can you defend the doctrine from scripture?



Matthew 16:17-19


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:27 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm



Can you defend the doctrine from scripture?



Matthew 16:17-19



Try again. that says nothing about indulgences. Please provide your reference to back up the doctrine of indulgences.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:58 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
X. INDULGENCES

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm



Can you defend the doctrine from scripture?



Matthew 16:17-19



Try again. that says nothing about indulgences. Please provide your reference to back up the doctrine of indulgences.


That is the doctrine of indulgences. Did you not read the official definition of indulgences that I provided for you?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:29 pm 
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pax wrote:

That is the doctrine of indulgences. Did you not read the official definition of indulgences that I provided for you?



:)....so there is no Biblical precedent for them so the church kind of just rolls its own theology on this one?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:

That is the doctrine of indulgences. Did you not read the official definition of indulgences that I provided for you?



:)....so there is no Biblical precedent for them so the church kind of just rolls its own theology on this one?


The Church has the power given to Her by Christ to bind and loose. She exercises this power in binding and loosing people from the temporal punishments due to sins. Even though those sins be forgiven, temporal punishments still remain, and an indulgence remits temporal punishments.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:44 pm 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:

That is the doctrine of indulgences. Did you not read the official definition of indulgences that I provided for you?



:)....so there is no Biblical precedent for them so the church kind of just rolls its own theology on this one?


The Church has the power given to Her by Christ to bind and loose. She exercises this power in binding and loosing people from the temporal punishments due to sins. Even though those sins be forgiven, temporal punishments still remain, and an indulgence remits temporal punishments.


Do you have any sort of Biblical reference to suggest that temporal punishment exists for those that are forgiven of their sins? I realize, of course, we deal with the effects of sin on earth.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
Do you have any sort of Biblical reference to suggest that temporal punishment exists for those that are forgiven of their sins? I realize, of course, we deal with the effects of sin on earth.


:), in courtroom-speak, asked and answered.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Byblos wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
Do you have any sort of Biblical reference to suggest that temporal punishment exists for those that are forgiven of their sins? I realize, of course, we deal with the effects of sin on earth.


:), in courtroom-speak, asked and answered.

?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
Do you have any sort of Biblical reference to suggest that temporal punishment exists for those that are forgiven of their sins? I realize, of course, we deal with the effects of sin on earth.


:), in courtroom-speak, asked and answered.

?


I think you need to take some time and learn what is meant by "temporal punishments".


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:

That is the doctrine of indulgences. Did you not read the official definition of indulgences that I provided for you?



:)....so there is no Biblical precedent for them so the church kind of just rolls its own theology on this one?


The Church has the power given to Her by Christ to bind and loose. She exercises this power in binding and loosing people from the temporal punishments due to sins. Even though those sins be forgiven, temporal punishments still remain, and an indulgence remits temporal punishments.


Do you have any sort of Biblical reference to suggest that temporal punishment exists for those that are forgiven of their sins? I realize, of course, we deal with the effects of sin on earth.


2Sam 12:13-14


Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:46 am 
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beng wrote:

Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


You're arguing from an OT passage. Are you an ancient Israelite living under the Law? I'm glad I'm not. Romans says there is now no condemnation for those in Christ (Rom 8:1). Why is there this continued fascination with paying for your own sin?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:13 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


You're arguing from an OT passage.



Just like Saint Paul. I mean, what Scriptures do you think The Apostle was talking abiout to Timothy and the Hebrews?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:18 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


You're arguing from an OT passage. Are you an ancient Israelite living under the Law? I'm glad I'm not. Romans says there is now no condemnation for those in Christ (Rom 8:1). Why is there this continued fascination with paying for your own sin?


Do you think the OT God lied when He forgave David's sin? Was his sin forgiven or not?


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:34 am 
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beng wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


You're arguing from an OT passage. Are you an ancient Israelite living under the Law? I'm glad I'm not. Romans says there is now no condemnation for those in Christ (Rom 8:1). Why is there this continued fascination with paying for your own sin?


Do you think the OT God lied when He forgave David's sin? Was his sin forgiven or not?


Also, consider all the penance that David did on behalf of the child.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:49 am 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


You're arguing from an OT passage.



Just like Saint Paul. I mean, what Scriptures do you think The Apostle was talking abiout to Timothy and the Hebrews?


Paul also said that Christ was the end of the law. He fulfilled it and we no longer live under the Mosaic Law like David.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:51 am 
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pax wrote:
beng wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
beng wrote:

Why is David still getting punished (his son was killed) after God forgives his sin?


You're arguing from an OT passage. Are you an ancient Israelite living under the Law? I'm glad I'm not. Romans says there is now no condemnation for those in Christ (Rom 8:1). Why is there this continued fascination with paying for your own sin?


Do you think the OT God lied when He forgave David's sin? Was his sin forgiven or not?


Also, consider all the penance that David did on behalf of the child.

Yet...scripture is silent about the penance. Wierd, huh? Almost like nobody ever considered penance until a couple thousand years later when the catholic church decided to teach it.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:02 am 
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Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Also, consider all the penance that David did on behalf of the child.

Yet...scripture is silent about the penance. Wierd, huh? Almost like nobody ever considered penance until a couple thousand years later when the catholic church decided to teach it.


You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground. [17] And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them. [18] And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died: and the servants of David feared to tell him, that the child was dead. For they said: Behold when the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he would not hearken to our voice: how much more will he afflict himself if we tell him that the child is dead? [19] But when David saw his servants whispering, he understood that the child was dead: and he said to his servants: Is the child dead? They answered him: He is dead. [20] Then David arose from the ground, and washed and anointed himself: and when he had changed his apparel, he went into the house of the Lord: and worshipped, and then he came into his own house, and he called for bread, and ate.

[21] And his servants said to him: What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive, but when the child was dead, thou didst rise up, and eat bread. [22] And he said: While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept for him: for I said: Who knoweth whether the Lord may not give him to me, and the child may live? [23] But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Shall I be able to bring him back any more? I shall go to him rather: but he shall not return to me.


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 Post subject: Re: INDULGENCES
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:07 am 
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pax wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
pax wrote:
Also, consider all the penance that David did on behalf of the child.

Yet...scripture is silent about the penance. Wierd, huh? Almost like nobody ever considered penance until a couple thousand years later when the catholic church decided to teach it.


You really have never read the Scriptures, have you?

[16] And David besought the Lord for the child: and David kept a fast, and going in by himself lay upon the ground. [17] And the ancients of his house came, to make him rise from the ground: but he would not, neither did he eat meat with them. [18] And it came to pass on the seventh day that the child died: and the servants of David feared to tell him, that the child was dead. For they said: Behold when the child was yet alive, we spoke to him, and he would not hearken to our voice: how much more will he afflict himself if we tell him that the child is dead? [19] But when David saw his servants whispering, he understood that the child was dead: and he said to his servants: Is the child dead? They answered him: He is dead. [20] Then David arose from the ground, and washed and anointed himself: and when he had changed his apparel, he went into the house of the Lord: and worshipped, and then he came into his own house, and he called for bread, and ate.

[21] And his servants said to him: What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive, but when the child was dead, thou didst rise up, and eat bread. [22] And he said: While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept for him: for I said: Who knoweth whether the Lord may not give him to me, and the child may live? [23] But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Shall I be able to bring him back any more? I shall go to him rather: but he shall not return to me.


ok? You get penance from that? Notice he didn't keep doing it once the child was dead? He wasn't hoping to get him out of purgatory.


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