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 Post subject: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Can someone please provide me a list of statements that have been made ex cathedra over the years?


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:55 pm 
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I can provide you with a list of doctrines that have been defined: http://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologe ... ic-church/

That list was drawn up by an individual (albeit a very well-educated one), Dr. Ludwig Ott, so it is not itself an official statement. He tried to be exhaustive, but there may be things that are omitted, and it is possible that he occasionally misstated something.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
Can someone please provide me a list of statements that have been made ex cathedra over the years?


That could be almost anything. From Gedsunheit to an opinion on Harry Potter, I think. You're going to have to be more specific. A better question would be its opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
Can someone please provide me a list of statements that have been made ex cathedra over the years?


It's a debateable point, the count of what would and would not 'count' is a complicated one, but I think that according to even the most conservative estimates there have been at least a dozen such statements over the last 2,000 years....for example, when a Pope ratifies the sessions of an ecumenical council, is that ex cathedra or not? It is a complicated question....however....since the definition of Papal Infallibility in 1870 there has been only one unambiguous, universally accepted exampe the defintion of the Assumption of Mary in 1950....

But looking at ex cathedra statements is not really the point, because unambiguous ex cathedra statements tend to be very rare and are reserved only for the most important things.....the normal method of Papal instruction is through exortions, explanations, condemnations and whatnot, and there are at least several thousands of those....


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:06 pm 
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From what I understand as a former catholic, when a pope speaks "ex cathedra" or "from the chair of Peter", he is speaking infallibly. Can someone give me an official list of when a pope has done this?


Doom wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
Can someone please provide me a list of statements that have been made ex cathedra over the years?


It's a debateable point, the count of what would and would not 'count' is a complicated one, but I think that according to even the most conservative estimates there have been at least a dozen such statements over the last 2,000 years....for example, when a Pope ratifies the sessions of an ecumenical council, is that ex cathedra or not? It is a complicated question....however....since the definition of Papal Infallibility in 1870 there has been only one unambiguous, universally accepted exampe the defintion of the Assumption of Mary in 1950....

But looking at ex cathedra statements is not really the point, because unambiguous ex cathedra statements tend to be very rare and are reserved only for the most important things.....the normal method of Papal instruction is through exortions, explanations, condemnations and whatnot, and there are at least several thousands of those....


This is a fairly major thing---speaking for God infallibly. There isn't an official list of such that we can objectively look at?


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:08 pm 
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sunmumy wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
Can someone please provide me a list of statements that have been made ex cathedra over the years?


That could be almost anything. From Gedsunheit to an opinion on Harry Potter, I think. You're going to have to be more specific. A better question would be its opposite.



Actually, specifying 'ex cathedra' statements places a very severe limitation, and it eliminates at least 98% of stuff Popes have said from consideration...


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Doom wrote:
sunmumy wrote:
Calvinist wrote:
Can someone please provide me a list of statements that have been made ex cathedra over the years?


That could be almost anything. From Gedsunheit to an opinion on Harry Potter, I think. You're going to have to be more specific. A better question would be its opposite.



Actually, specifying 'ex cathedra' statements places a very severe limitation, and it eliminates at least 98% of stuff Popes have said from consideration...

I realize that. From what I understand a pope is considered infallible in issues of faith and morals. I would like to specifically look at the ex cathedra statements though.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:32 pm 
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That info has already been provided for you by Fr H.

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“Be sober and vigilant: because your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is roaming around seeking whom he might devour. Strong in faith, resist him knowing that the same affliction befalls your brethren who are in the world. ” 1 Peter 5:8-9.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
This is a fairly major thing---speaking for God infallibly. There isn't an official list of such that we can objectively look at?

No, there isn't, not a definitive one anyway....

The closest thing that I am aware of is Ludwig Ott's 'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma', which is not comprehensive, dates from the mid 1950's, so that means that it is out of date and doesn't include a lot of stuff, and really the book offers little more than Ott's personal opinion, albeit it is a very informed opinion and if someone was to dispute Ott's conclusions he would reallly need to be very well informed indeed.

As I said, people don't agree on what qualifies as 'ex cathedra', truthfully I don't think the distinction is that significant because the ex cathedra statements do not differ from non ex cathedra in anything except level of authority, the actual content of statements is the same....anything that has been said ex cathedra has been said at least 10 times in a statement with a lesser degree of authority...


In other words, if you wish to know what the Catholic Church teaches, it is necessary to observe the distinction between ex cathedra and not, because the content is the same regardless.....and according to the Second Vatican Council, the teachings of the Pope are to be given 'religious assent' even when he is not speaking ex cathedra.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Doom wrote:
The closest thing that I am aware of is Ludwig Ott's 'Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma'

Which is the source of the list I provided.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:53 pm 
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The Pope speaks ex cathedra in approving the acts of ecumenical councils, and the Pope is generally believed to speak ex cathedra when he canonizes saints.

Sometimes Catholics and especially Catholic apologists can give the impression that the Church is like a Magic 8-Ball: Ask a question, get an answer. There are definitive answers (for the record, I am not aware of anything that Ott marks as de fide about which there is any question), and there are partial answers, and there are permitted answers, and within those parameters there's a lot of room for free belief.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:14 pm 
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So bottom line is that a core doctrine of the catholic church (ex cathedra) cannot be objectively analyzed, as there is no agreement on what statements can actually be applied to it?

I've seen some references to certain popes in various times...but no official ex cathedra statements?

I recall I believe Jimmy Akin (I'm sorry if it was someone else) several years ago stating that depending on the apologist it could be anywhere from 3 to 23 statements that have been made. I find it curious that no one can actually give a definitive list on such an important thing.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:35 pm 
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It's not as important a thing as you're making it out to be. I gave you a long list of things that the Church teaches. That's what's important.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's not as important a thing as you're making it out to be. I gave you a long list of things that the Church teaches. That's what's important.

So papal infallibility is a non-issue?


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:16 pm 
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It is an issue, but far too much is made of it. The Church teaches, and papal infallibility is one of the many means by which She teaches, and it's not always possible to separate the teachings into nice distinct compartments by means of delivery. It's the teachings that are important; the means by which they are taught, not so much.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It is an issue, but far too much is made of it. The Church teaches, and papal infallibility is one of the many means by which She teaches, and it's not always possible to separate the teachings into nice distinct compartments by means of delivery. It's the teachings that are important; the means by which they are taught, not so much.

Forgive me for butting in. What you're saying makes sense to me, Obi. I do have a question, though. Is Doom correct that the doctrine of Papal infallibility was defined in 1870 and that there has only been one incontrovertible example of such a statement sense then (i.e., the Assumption)?


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:28 pm 
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There was a pretty clear example in an encyclical of JPII's on abortion, where he very deliberately hit on each of the marks of infallibility before saying that procured abortion is always gravely immoral.

Quote:
Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops--who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine--I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Calvinist wrote:
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:
It's not as important a thing as you're making it out to be. I gave you a long list of things that the Church teaches. That's what's important.

So papal infallibility is a non-issue?




Truthfully, Papal infallibility is one of those issues that it seems non-Catholics care a lot more about than Catholics, in point of fact, it is of little practical interest to the practicing Catholic whether or not a particular doctrine would be classified as 'infallible' or whatnot...


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:33 pm 
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Doom wrote:
Truthfully, Papal infallibility is one of those issues that it seems non-Catholics care a lot more about than Catholics, in point of fact, it is of little practical interest to the practicing Catholic whether or not a particular doctrine would be classified as 'infallible' or whatnot...

I didn't read your earlier posts in this thread very carefully (hey, it's not Lent yet!), so I don't know if you've already said something like this. But I kind of half think that the whole papal infallibility thing is often nothing more than a diversion. Catholics who want to avoid the need to accept something that the Church clearly teaches will sometimes play the "hey, the Pope hasn't infallibly defined it" card in order to pretend they're OK in their dissent. But as you point out, if the ordinary magisterium teaches it, it's still binding, regardless of whether the Pope has ever weighed in personally.


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 Post subject: Re: ex cathedra statements
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:38 pm 
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gherkin wrote:
There was a pretty clear example in an encyclical of JPII's on abortion, where he very deliberately hit on each of the marks of infallibility before saying that procured abortion is always gravely immoral.

Quote:
Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops--who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine--I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.

I suppose it may be said, as it has with the declaration on women priests, that the teaching was already infallible. The pope is unambiguously, here, saying that this teaching is infallibly by the "ordinary and universal magisterium." I suppose nothing prevents a declaration that a teaching is infallibly taught by the ordinary magisterium from being its an act of the extraordinary magisterium, here ex cathedra


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