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 Post subject: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:13 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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"Anathema sit" is "let him/her/it be anathema"


But what of...

1. "Let you be anathema"
2. "What an anathema"
3. "Anathema to all who believe otherwise"
4. "Anathema here, anathema there, anathema everywhere"
5. "you are an anathema [to the Catholic faith]"
6. "It is an anathema to the christian/catholic/apostolic faith
7. "You are an anathema to me"
8. "anathema is upon you"


Please indulge me and translate them :P


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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:15 am 
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This is only an attempt:

1. "Anathema sis"
2. "Quod anathema!"
3. "Anathema omnibus qui aliter credunt"
4. "Anathema hic, anathema illic, anathema ubique"
5. "Anathema es [fidei catholicae]"
6. "Anathema est christianae/catholicae/apostolicae fidei"
7. "Anathema es mihi"
8. "Anathema super te"

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:16 pm 
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I would change three...there is also a problem with most of them. Anathema to someone does not make much sense. Anathema is a noun...anathema sit mean "let him be AN anathema"...but without the qualifier


3. Anathema omnibus credentibus aliter


In fact you see that it really does not work, because anathema is not a command to do something to someone, it is a thing. This phrase would be rendered back into English "It is an anathema to all believing otherwise"

So beng's requests are as silly as me saying How do I translate "door to everyone!"...with that in mind, we need to reject beng's nonsensical phrases

1. Anathema sis (be thou an anathema), anathemæ sint (be they anathemas), anathemæ sistis (be you anathemas)

2. Turgonian made the mistake of assuming idiomatic speech is literal, it is also the wrong gender. Quod anathema is "since anathema" or "that anathema" in the sense not as a pronoun but as "It is to be said that an anathema is said....". Quae is the right gender, but that is bad Latin

Something like "Eu édepol anathema!" is idiomatic Latin

3. Anathema sint credentes omnes aliter (let all who believe otherwise be anathema)

4-8 of turgonian's is fine But I would add "Anathema super vos" for you (pl), instead of just the singular thou

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
1. Anathema sis (be thou an anathema), anathemæ sint (be they anathemas), anathemæ sistis (be you anathemas)

Sitis, right? Not sistis.

Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
2. Turgonian made the mistake of assuming idiomatic speech is literal, it is also the wrong gender. Quod anathema is "since anathema" or "that anathema" in the sense not as a pronoun but as "It is to be said that an anathema is said....". Quae is the right gender, but that is bad Latin

I was wondering about whether quod ... was the right expression, and tried to look it up. However, are you sure it's a feminine word? Anathema is a direct transliteration from the Greek, where the word is neuter.

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Why bother with Latin when we have the good old vernacular "FU"?


Edward Pothier


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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:13 pm 
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Edward Pothier wrote:
Why bother with Latin when we have the good old vernacular "FU"?


Edward Pothier


It's more dignifying :P






Thanks for all the translations!


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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:16 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Btw, no.4 is so much fun.

"What do you think of this writing?"
"Well, it's anathema hic, anathema illic, anathema ubique!"
"Wow, is it THAT good?"


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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:38 pm 
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Turgonian wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
1. Anathema sis (be thou an anathema), anathemæ sint (be they anathemas), anathemæ sistis (be you anathemas)

Sitis, right? Not sistis.

Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
2. Turgonian made the mistake of assuming idiomatic speech is literal, it is also the wrong gender. Quod anathema is "since anathema" or "that anathema" in the sense not as a pronoun but as "It is to be said that an anathema is said....". Quae is the right gender, but that is bad Latin

I was wondering about whether quod ... was the right expression, and tried to look it up. However, are you sure it's a feminine word? Anathema is a direct transliteration from the Greek, where the word is neuter.


You know you are right...in fact it is third declension (which is the only way short of being a bizarre exception that it could be neuter).

Anathema- an anthema (subject)
Anathematis- of an anathema
Anathemate- to an anathema
Anathema- an anathema (object)
Anathemate- by an anathema

Anathemata- anathemas
anathematium- of anathemas
etc

Apparently my Latin dictionary claims in very late Latin there is a verbal form and "anathema"is the singular imperative. I am a bit confused by that because when the word occurs in scripture (let me be an anathema) and in St. Thomas, even in the form anathema sit, it is explained as a noun by St. Thomas. So I don´t know where the verbal form is found.


So

Anathema sis - be thou an anathema
anathemata sitis- be you anathema

Anathemata sint credentes omnes aliter

Should correct the ones I wrote above

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:26 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Anathema- an anthema (subject)
Anathematis- of an anathema
Anathemate- to an anathema
Anathema- an anathema (object)
Anathemate- by an anathema

The third one would be anathemati, methinks.

But thanks for the research. It was enlightening.

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:04 pm 
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Well both are correct (seriously)

Anathema is an i-stem neuter. The standard "paradigm"gives us

Anathema- Nom
Anathematis- Gen
Anathemati- Dative
Anathema- Acc
Anathemati

In classical latin sometimes e was exchange for final i. This become very common in medieval Latin. Anathema being a vocabulum recentior, both forms are found easily enough

I somehow got that it was i-stemmed for the plural genitive, but missed the plural nominative and accusative

Anathematia

I-stem neuters have an i in the ablative, before the a in the plural nominative/accusative, and the -ium plural genitive. Masculine and feminine i-stems have only the -ium ending, though occasionally the ablative is written with an i

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:18 pm 
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Si quis non amat Dominum, sit anathema. Marana tha! (1 Cor 16:22)

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:27 am 
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Quote:
Something like "Eu édepol anathema!" is idiomatic Latin
The etymology of edepol is e deus Pollux (lo, the God Pollux!) which while idiomatic Latin, is probably too pagan for beng to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:10 am 
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Nooj wrote:
Quote:
Something like "Eu édepol anathema!" is idiomatic Latin
The etymology of edepol is e deus Pollux (lo, the God Pollux!) which while idiomatic Latin, is probably too pagan for beng to use.

By the dog, that is true Socrates!

Eu might suffice by itself

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:32 am 
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
I would change three...there is also a problem with most of them. Anathema to someone does not make much sense. Anathema is a noun...anathema sit mean "let him be AN anathema"...but without the qualifier


3. Anathema omnibus credentibus aliter


In fact you see that it really does not work, because anathema is not a command to do something to someone, it is a thing. This phrase would be rendered back into English "It is an anathema to all believing otherwise"

So beng's requests are as silly as me saying How do I translate "door to everyone!"


But it was said on Chalcedon:

    After the reading of the foregoing epistle, the most reverend bishops cried out: This is the faith of the fathers, this is the faith of the Apostles. So we all believe, thus the orthodox believe. Anathema to him who does not thus believe. [another translation reads "anathema to all who believe otherwise"] Peter has spoken thus through Leo.

If the phrase [ie. "anathema to all who believe otherwise" or "anathema to him who does not thus believe"] is grammatically incorrect, then what is really said in the original council document and why the mistranslation (if any)?


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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:31 pm 
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beng wrote:
Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
I would change three...there is also a problem with most of them. Anathema to someone does not make much sense. Anathema is a noun...anathema sit mean "let him be AN anathema"...but without the qualifier


3. Anathema omnibus credentibus aliter


In fact you see that it really does not work, because anathema is not a command to do something to someone, it is a thing. This phrase would be rendered back into English "It is an anathema to all believing otherwise"

So beng's requests are as silly as me saying How do I translate "door to everyone!"


But it was said on Chalcedon:

    After the reading of the foregoing epistle, the most reverend bishops cried out: This is the faith of the fathers, this is the faith of the Apostles. So we all believe, thus the orthodox believe. Anathema to him who does not thus believe. [another translation reads "anathema to all who believe otherwise"] Peter has spoken thus through Leo.

If the phrase [ie. "anathema to all who believe otherwise" or "anathema to him who does not thus believe"] is grammatically incorrect, then what is really said in the original council document and why the mistranslation (if any)?

It was said about Chalcedon...the New advent link is not to the Council itself, but the acts...an historical description of it

This makes it very hard for me to look up the original Greek or even Latin. I have the text of the Council itself

Every single use of the word anathema in the Greek is in the verb form. "Let him be anathematized" (anathematizetur in the Latin, and anathematizestho in the Greek). If you can find the text at hand I could look at it. But I do not have Les canons des synodes particuliers at hand

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 Post subject: Re: Latin translation needed
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:46 pm 
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We can say that heresy is anathema to all who are Catholic. That makes sense. I looked and found a Latin version of the 'acts', anathematizat was there, but no I must say the Schaff screwed it up (again) it seems, but I didn´t look at the Greek.

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