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 Post subject: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:39 pm 
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Jedi Padawan
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Can someone help me grasp how Genitive is used in Latin. I use the LINGVA LATINA book and I'm working with chapter two but I'm having a bit of problem with figuring out Genitive.

My problem is that I don't quite understand when the Gentive case is used for the person it belongs to or when it is used the other way around.

So e.g Viking's car is a BMW could also be written BMW is the car that viking owns. I'm not sure I'm clear enough. I might look a bit more in the book but does anyone understand what I'm referring to? When does the person it belongs to get the genitive ending and when does the ending go with the persons who belong to the person?


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:59 pm 
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Jedi Master
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It always goes with the possessor, not the thing possessed.

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:53 am 
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Jedi Padawan
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Thanks, but now I'm more confused since the example for masculine genitive case in the book you have something like "Dave is the master of servant Phill" and the genitive is put on "servi" and the name. Those are the ones being possessed not the ones possessing.


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:09 am 
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Jedi Padawan
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So one of the example the book most often uses is in relation to one family. They have both their children and slaves. One example is e.g like this:

Augustus pater Justi est.


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:42 am 
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Sons of Thunder
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A master owns his slaves, yes. But gramatically, if you say that Dave is the master of the slave Phil, then it is Phil who possesses a master. I think you are mixing up law and grammar and that is where your problem comes from ;)

Similarly with Augustus pater Iusti est. Iustus is the possessor of a father, Augustus. If you said the other way round Iustus filius Augusti est then it would be in line with your thinking, right?

BTW, you have a similar structure in Norwegian:
Olav er Ivars far.
Olav er slaven Ivars herre.

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:08 am 
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Jedi Padawan
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Cowboy Max wrote:
A master owns his slaves, yes. But gramatically, if you say that Dave is the master of the slave Phil, then it is Phil who possesses a master. I think you are mixing up law and grammar and that is where your problem comes from ;)

Similarly with Augustus pater Iusti est. Iustus is the possessor of a father, Augustus. If you said the other way round Iustus filius Augusti est then it would be in line with your thinking, right?

BTW, you have a similar structure in Norwegian:
Olav er Ivars far.
Olav er slaven Ivars herre.


Thanks it made it a lot more clear. You where right about me thinking in too legalistic terms. See how much easier it is in Norwegian. Just add an 's'


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:22 am 
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Marcus is the son of Julius....Marcus est filius Julii. or Marcus est filius Julio (Marcus is a son to Julius)

Whoever is the subject will be in the nominative. Whenever is use a possessive that is not in the nominative, not the subject. Julius's rage is evil. Rage is the subject, not Julius. Your Majesty is kind. Majesty, not Your, is the subject (hence the 3rd person). God's Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Church is the subject.

I think your are over thinking. The point of Lingua Latina is to learn the usage through context, rather than imposing on the text.

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:59 am 
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servus, servi, servo, servum, servo
servi, servorum, servis, servos, servis

Note the word "servi" genitive singular matches "servi" nominative plural. You will have to finger the actual case by context.

Papae servi servorum sunt.

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:54 am 
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magister servi

The master of the slave = slave's master = the master is of the slave/the master is the slave's possession.

servus magistri
The slave of the master = master's slave = the slave is the master's possession.

This place definitely needs more Latin questions. Keep 'em coming. Have you got to subjective/objective genitives yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Jedi Padawan
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I'm not sure what an subjective or objective genitive is. There is genitive that doesn't refer to humans but objects in my book. The book isn't really heavy on grammar but takes a bit different approach. After having finished LINGVA LATINA I'll probably read something more grammar-dense.


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Jedi Padawan
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Pro Ecclesia Dei wrote:
Marcus is the son of Julius....Marcus est filius Julii. or Marcus est filius Julio (Marcus is a son to Julius)


So would it also be correct to say Marci filii Julius est? (or Marci est filii Julius)?


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:26 pm 
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viking wrote:

So would it also be correct to say Marci filii Julius est? (or Marci est filii Julius)?
If you want to say Julius is the son of Marcus, son has to be the same case as Julius, which is nominative. So Julius filius est Marci.

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Nooj wrote:
viking wrote:

So would it also be correct to say Marci filii Julius est? (or Marci est filii Julius)?
If you want to say Julius is the son of Marcus, son has to be the same case as Julius, which is nominative. So Julius filius est Marci.

Right

In this case Julius pater Marci est. Marcus filius Julii est (in Lingua Latina)

I am my son's father. I and Father are nominative. Ego mei filii pater. Ego and pater are nominative. Son's is genitive in English, filii genitive in Latin

But it is a very different thing to say I am of my son's father.

Or the example. Marci fillii Julius est means that Julius belongs to the son of Marcus. Julius is pater, Marcus is filius. In Julius est... we are predicating something of Julius, not Marcus. So filii has not place in that sentence, since we are speaking of Julius

Now perhaps part of the confusion is that Norwegian has only nominative and genitive cases, and hence the genitive might be broader in Norwegian (I am guessing) than English (which also has the accusative), Greek (which has the dative and accusative) or Latin (dative, ablative, accusative)

Try this. Read a sentence. If you don´t understand it, think who is the subject of the sentence. What is it saying about him? And keep yourself restricted to the usages you see for now...don´t guess new usages, since they might not correspond to Norwegian. For instance, Greek uses the genitive often where Latin has the ablative. It would be bad Latin to impose that

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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Jedi Padawan
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Thanks PED, I'll try to restrict myself. I get worried that if I don't get the genitive 100% now it will ruin all of my future Latin and that I shouldn't move on. I also think that I have almost all the examples right because the PENSVM A doesn't give very much room for failure. (Except that last example which was a real braintwister to me)


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 Post subject: Re: Genitive case help with Latin
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:36 pm 
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Sons of Thunder
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Well uses will be brought up in context, and the same grammatical concept is often treat more than once, being fuller the next time.

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