Login Register

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 4 of 5   [ 81 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:29 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
I didn't say that one has to be a full-fledged member of the Catholic Church. I have stated elsewhere, to you, that one may be in communion with the Holy Catholic Church in ways known only to God. What you must understand is that these are very rare exceptions, not the rule. For someone to attain salvation while not being a full-fledged member of the Holy Catholic Church cannot be said to be a commonplace occurrence. It is far more likely to not happen than to happen.


Again, how do you know this, when the links I posted say otherwise? I'm not reassuring anyone that they should remain protestant, nor have I. I wouldn't even debate this so vehemently if certain people wouldn't post blatant inaccuracies like: "Protestants don't believe in God." That is absurd and why that's okay to write, and it's not okay to state what the CCC says is baffling to me.

I will not encourage anyone to remain a Protestant, because I don't believe in doing that at all. It seems only fair to me that if it's okay to type "Protestants don't believe in God," that it's okay to debate that based on what is taught in our faith.

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:31 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
(3) Any attempt to explain the Church's necessity for salvation by claiming that it is only the "ordinary" means, or by imagining that it is requisite only for those who are aware of its dignity and position, is completely false and unacceptable.


Right! So...are you saying the Monsignor is wrong here? This is my point. Do I believe him, or you?

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:46 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
But whatever....I know what you guys are saying. I get it. You want people who wander in here to believe the hard core "No salvation outside of the Catholic Church" so they don't get the wrong impression that it's "okay" to stay in their church. I understand that, but I don't understand that that is the way to do it. Because really, I don't even get that message from what I've learned, and the people I've learned from, OR the websites I've posted, and read. I don't even get that from the CCC. But if you guys get that then okay, so be it. I think certain things should be expected to be debated however, when they are preposterous.


Misha

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:30 am 
Offline
Ancient Mariner
Ancient Mariner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:04 pm
Posts: 16970
Location: If I'm not there I must be here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Honorary Member 3rd degree KC
Jack Chick is my HERO.
:cloud9:

_________________
The Gate of Heaven is the Door of the Confessional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:37 am 
Offline
Ancient Mariner
Ancient Mariner
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:04 pm
Posts: 16970
Location: If I'm not there I must be here
Religion: Catholic
Church Affiliations: Honorary Member 3rd degree KC
I would like to see a list of protestant churches that have produced saints. I'd also like to see some protestant saints.

_________________
The Gate of Heaven is the Door of the Confessional.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:44 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
Who is Jack Chick? :scratch:

Since Protestants don't have saints, I find it interesting that there is a Methodist Church in Houston called "St. Matthew"s." Do they acknowledge the apostles and/or authors of the gospels are saints?

Misha

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:47 am 
Online
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73378
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Saralaughs wrote:
Quote:
I didn't say that one has to be a full-fledged member of the Catholic Church. I have stated elsewhere, to you, that one may be in communion with the Holy Catholic Church in ways known only to God. What you must understand is that these are very rare exceptions, not the rule. For someone to attain salvation while not being a full-fledged member of the Holy Catholic Church cannot be said to be a commonplace occurrence. It is far more likely to not happen than to happen.


Again, how do you know this, when the links I posted say otherwise?


Please post the exact words that contradict what I said.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:54 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Quote:
(3) Any attempt to explain the Church's necessity for salvation by claiming that it is only the "ordinary" means, or by imagining that it is requisite only for those who are aware of its dignity and position, is completely false and unacceptable.


I'm not saying anything you said is contradictory per-se. I am wanting to know how you get this:

Quote:
I have stated elsewhere, to you, that one may be in communion with the Holy Catholic Church in ways known only to God. What you must understand is that these are very rare exceptions, not the rule. For someone to attain salvation while not being a full-fledged member of the Holy Catholic Church cannot be said to be a commonplace occurrence. It is far more likely to not happen than to happen.


From what the Monsignor states above, and from the other link explaining this topic from "This Rock."

But like I said too - whatever. Meaning, I accept that you read something into all of this that I do not. I will not encourage any Protestant to remain Protestant. If I thought remaining Protestant was "good enough" I too would still be Methodist.

Misha

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:20 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19197
Religion: Catholic
Saralaughs wrote:
Quote:
(3) Any attempt to explain the Church's necessity for salvation by claiming that it is only the "ordinary" means, or by imagining that it is requisite only for those who are aware of its dignity and position, is completely false and unacceptable.


Right! So...are you saying the Monsignor is wrong here? This is my point. Do I believe him, or you?


Misha, I am beginning to suspect that you are making this up as you go along just to be argumentative.

In the other thread you said "people can't reject what they haven't received in their hearts." The above quote, from the link you provided and now claim is what you hve been saying all along, says exactly the opposite.

I have no idea what you believe and I am not sure you know what you believe either. The only thing that is clear is that you don't like Pax.

I think it is time that we enforce the condition you had on your previous account, please avoid conversations about EENS. You are not doing anything but sewing seeds of confusion and dissent, which is not helpful in the least.

Zeno
DCF Team


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:27 pm 
Online
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73378
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Is this the part you disagree with?

Quote:
I have stated elsewhere, to you, that one may be in communion with the Holy Catholic Church in ways known only to God.


Is this the part you disagree with?

Quote:
What you must understand is that these are very rare exceptions, not the rule.


How about this part?

Quote:
For someone to attain salvation while not being a full-fledged member of the Holy Catholic Church cannot be said to be a commonplace occurrence.


Or is it perhaps this?

Quote:
It is far more likely to not happen than to happen.


You may answer me via private message.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:30 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
No, I assure you I am not trying to be argumentative, nor am I making anything up. I hate negativity of any kind. Perhaps I am just not understanding something, but I'm not doing anything on purpose other than simply trying to understand. And I do not dislike Pax either. I don't even know him. I dislike it when he makes huge blanket statements that are written as fact, with no room for discussion.

And I would PM you, but again, I have no way to do that.

Misha

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 3:31 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19197
Religion: Catholic
You can email Siggy. Her email is in her profile.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:35 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19197
Religion: Catholic
Your post has been moved. You can email Siggy using your own email account, outside the board.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:42 pm 
Offline
Honeymoon King
Honeymoon King
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 25, 2003 4:39 pm
Posts: 44272
Location: in marital bliss
Religion: One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic
Church Affiliations: 3rd Degree K of C, L of M
Saralaughs wrote:
But whatever....I know what you guys are saying. I get it. You want people who wander in here to believe the hard core "No salvation outside of the Catholic Church" so they don't get the wrong impression that it's "okay" to stay in their church. I understand that, but I don't understand that that is the way to do it. Because really, I don't even get that message from what I've learned, and the people I've learned from, OR the websites I've posted, and read. I don't even get that from the CCC. But if you guys get that then okay, so be it. I think certain things should be expected to be debated however, when they are preposterous.


Misha


The question is not whether you believe the Mons or Zeno, but whether you believe an the Ecumenical Council of Florence or the Mons.

Can you cite something from the Ecumenical Council of Florence which you find "preposterous"?

_________________
We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:54 pm 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
Quote:
Can you cite something from the Ecumenical Council of Florence which you find "preposterous"?


No, not at all Pax. I understand the point you and the others are making, and it's fine. I'm not going to debate this point anymore because I don't want to get banned over splitting hairs.
Edited by Administrator
Misha

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:06 pm 
Offline
Board Administrator
Board Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:44 am
Posts: 19197
Religion: Catholic
Yes, please drop it, Misha, or we will have to remove your ability to post in this forum, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:53 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:33 am
Posts: 1874
Location: Way the heck out in the AZ desert
Religion: Christian
Signum Crucis wrote:
Please cite the passage.


CCC 58 wrote:
The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel. The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchizedek—a figure of Christ—and the upright "Noah, Daniel, and Job." Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to "gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:01 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:33 am
Posts: 1874
Location: Way the heck out in the AZ desert
Religion: Christian
Philothea wrote:
Fish wrote:
Pax,

If there is one thing you have taught me again and again (and again) it is to not take the literal literally. Catholicism is so enormous that it is extremely easy to take literal paragraphs out of context and construct whatever argument you wish. Can you really be so sure that Protestants are going to hell that you would risk your own salvation? Because in my CCC even Jews can go to heaven.

Are you sure that you understand Pax?


Whenever I quote scripture to Pax to prove a point, he will come up with an obscure reference in some papal edict somewhere which suggests the contrary. I only find out months afterward when I use his passage to convince others of my change of heart that the passage was taken out of context or clarified by some later edict.

This sort of confusion is why priests are tasked with sifting through the mountains of paper and sorting it all out into something comprehensive.

Unless Pax quotes black letter scripture, I can't afford to take his opinions at face value. Which is too bad because I admire his knowledge of the Faith and the tenacity with which he evangelizes it. I admire an evangelist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:49 am 
Online
Head Administrator
Head Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:24 am
Posts: 73378
Location: Music City
Religion: Catholic
Fish wrote:
Signum Crucis wrote:
Please cite the passage.


CCC 58 wrote:
The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel. The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchizedek—a figure of Christ—and the upright "Noah, Daniel, and Job." Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to "gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."


That passage is contained in a section of the Catechism entitled The Stages of Revelation. The Covenant of Noah was that God would never again destroy the world by water. The sentences following the one you bolded talk about Gentiles being venerated, not Jews.

The saints of the Old Covenant went to the Limbo of the Fathers to await the coming of Christ who would open heaven to them.

If you look farther down, you will see paragraph 72, which says:

72 God chose Abraham and made a covenant with him and his descendants. By the covenant God formed his people and revealed his law to them through Moses. Through the prophets, he prepared them to accept the salvation destined for all humanity.

Notice the words "prepared them to accept". It looks to me like they had to accept Christ to gain salvation.

_________________
For the DCF Children Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:49 am 
Offline
Citizen
Citizen
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 pm
Posts: 365
Religion: Catholic
Why was that edited? I can't even "drop it" right. :roll:

_________________
The rain on my car is a baptism, the new me, Ice Man, Power Lloyd, my assault on the world begins now.
- Lloyd Dobler


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies. Page 4 of 5   [ 81 posts ]   Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


Jump to: