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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:29 pm 
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Honeymoon King
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Saralaughs wrote:
Quote:
I will not tolerate intolerance?


Its a joke.

Actually, it is the mantra of the liberals, but they just don't get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:35 pm 
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Anti-Catholics, like John MacArthur, have said that through out time "true christians" have understood that the RCC is a false religion and a Satanic organization. Yet I've never seen one shred of evidence to support such claims.............?

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:43 pm 
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:)! That's probably because they have no evidence strong enough to not be "shot down" by Catholics who know their faith. :P (to them) :D

Saralaughs

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:33 am 
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defender316 wrote:
fish wrote:
Yeah, I have a thought. Tell him if he wants to lead the charge for Christ, make sure the spear is pointed in the right direction. In Protestantism, Christians are saved by faith and if Catholicism produces faithful Christians--even if only a few--he cannot condemn Catholicism without risking his own salvation in the very same breath.


If Christ died for THE WORLD, then can you condemn anyone without risking your own salvation in the same breath? Is this circular logic or reasoning also? :scratch: Maybe this person has been misjudged also. What "spear" is this person using? :wave
[/quote]

There is circular reasoning and then there is irony. The spear is metaphor. You didn't get any of it. Christ taught in parables and you don't understand irony and metaphor? Here it is in verse:

luke 5:37 wrote:
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned."


So you tell me, what does it say? How is it to be interpreted otherwise?

Condemn Protestants and condemn yourself. Protestants to Catholics likewise.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:32 am 
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Somehow I don't think Jesus meant to endorse moral or doctrinal relativism.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:46 am 
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Fish didn't say that we couldn't still have fun condemning Protestantism! :fyi:

One love!

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:11 pm 
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Quote:
Condemn Protestants and condemn yourself. Protestants to Catholics likewise.


Yes. And Catholics to Protestants likewise. For I have learned that if you do otherwise, they have already won. I know that sometimes people come here with bad intentions and they attack, while others are honestly seeking guidance. But a very wise Catholic moderator/administrator on this board told me not to judge another Protestants intentions, because everyone, regardless of their intentions is a potential convert.

What does this mean to you? Is this moral relativism?

"For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

To me this means that Christ not only died for Catholics, but Protestants also, for people who speak English, and people who do not, for atheists, for agnostics, for murderers, for thieves, for THE WORLD. Yes, I have chosen the RCC because I believe it is the one true faith, and the Church established on Peter was given the charge to preach the gospel to ALL PEOPLE.

I have even seen Catholics attack, deny or falsely accuse other Catholics here too. Unfortunately for me, I was also drawn into this mentality and did it also, for which I have asked forgiveness. It's not just me. It's not just you, but many. Jesus knew this would also happen. Even Peter told Him, I will follow you anywhere. Jesus told Him that before the "cock croweth" (dawn), you will deny me three times. Did this happen? Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:41 pm 
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Isn't it true that every belief system is either circular or built upon unprovable axioms? (If everything you believe can be proven by other truths, those other truths in turn must be either given or proven, and so on.)


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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:54 pm 
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AdAltareDei wrote:
Isn't it true that every belief system is either circular or built upon unprovable axioms? (If everything you believe can be proven by other truths, those other truths in turn must be either given or proven, and so on.)
All belief systems have a central premise...upon which a structure is constructed. That central premise is often unprovable.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:28 am 
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Turgonian wrote:
Fish didn't say that we couldn't still have fun condemning Protestantism! :fyi:

One love!
::):

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Appeals to personal subjectivity on a matter of objective right is as much a category mistake as claiming that the number 3 is taller than the color blue. - Dr. Francis Beckwith

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:35 pm 
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AdAltareDei wrote:
Isn't it true that every belief system is either circular or built upon unprovable axioms? (If everything you believe can be proven by other truths, those other truths in turn must be either given or proven, and so on.)

There are three ways of knowing.

Traditionalism / Realism -- a journey of knowledge, guided by Tradition, Reason and (sometimes) Revelation; openness to the surrounding Reality and humility are central.

Rationalism -- the attempt to construct a system based on an asserted axiom that may not be challenged (like sola Scriptura).

Eclecticism -- a pick-and-choose approach from different traditions and systems, of which those parts are accepted that appeal to a person's feelings for whatever reason; dogmatic conclusions are avoided.

Somewhat comparable to Catholicism, classical Protestantism, modern Protestantism; or Christianity, Atheism, Agnosticism.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Given my point above, could one not conclude that eclecticism is a belief system which has the basic premise that truth can be found anywhere by anybody using any means? That essential tenent cannot be proved or disproved, but if accepted, allows a structure that is as you have described.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:32 pm 
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I like what Defender said.

Saralaughs

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:15 am 
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Maybe, but Eclecticists do not like starting from axioms.

I am a Realist, of course, and I wouldn't say that I start from an axiom. Reality is the ground of all our knowledge and investigation, including the knowledge of the axiom. We investigate Reality rather than the logical consequences of our starting point.

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A teacher who is not dogmatic is simply a teacher who is not teaching. (G.K. Chesterton)

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:04 pm 
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defender316 wrote:
What does this mean to you? Is this moral relativism?

"For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

To me this means that Christ not only died for Catholics, but Protestants also,


Protestants do not believe in Christ.

They just believe in themselves.

Yes, He died for them.

No, they do not have everlasting life, not unless they stop being Protestants and become Catholics. The same goes for every other group you can think of --including Catholics who are called to daily conversion.

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Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Pax, that is such baloney. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:30 pm 
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Saralaughs wrote:
Pax, that is such baloney. :roll:


Sorry, Mishna, but your "infallible" teaching is not binding on members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Please find the actual teachings of the Magisterium that deal with the Mystical Body of Christ and the unity of the Church, and cite them for me so that I may be illuminated as to my error.

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:12 pm 
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Sorry, Mishna, but your "infallible" teaching is not binding on members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Please find the actual teachings of the Magisterium that deal with the Mystical Body of Christ and the unity of the Church, and cite them for me so that I may be illuminated as to my error.




Quote:
Protestants do not believe in Christ.

They just believe in themselves.


Pax, I've posted the actual teaching of the Magisterium before. You know it already. Your error lies in these statements above. But if you need to believe that to feel somehow more "saved" than others, then fine. It's just not wise to make blanket statements like that. And it's not accurate either.

Saralaughs

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:08 pm 
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I agree with Saralaughs. :shock:

My august predecessor, your problem is that you do not know honest, open-minded, Christ-loving Protestants who simply happen to be misinformed, and some other people do know them. I, for one.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:22 pm 
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Turgonian wrote:
I agree with Saralaughs. :shock:

My august predecessor, your problem is that you do not know honest, open-minded, Christ-loving Protestants who simply happen to be misinformed, and some other people do know them. I, for one.


And I agree with Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, who says: Those who pick and choose among the Scripture believe themselves rather than the Scriptures.

But, if Augustine's words do not move you, why not take the words of Pope Pius XI over those of Sarahlaughs? I am sure you will agree he is a slightly higher authority.

Pope Pius XI wrote:
For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.

11. Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.


Wow! It is foolish and out of place to claim that those who are disunited and scattered are in communion with Christ.

How's that for "baloney"?

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We are obliged to believe and confess with simplicity that outside the Church there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins. [Pope Boniface VIII]

Judas Iscariot is the patron saint of Social Justice. Venerable Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

A logistics problem should be handled with a logistical solution, not a liturgical one.


Holy Mary, Queen of the Martyrs, Pray for us.



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