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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:23 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Don't tell AJW that we wipe our feet on a rainy day before entering the Church. He would find that an odd requirement of the Vatican and would see it as a Papal plot to take over America. Feet wiping isn't in the bible.
Here's an outward sign of worship commanded in Scripture, do Catholics do this? "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands"

Or what about this one; "Listen to my prayer for mercy as I cry out to you for help, "as I lift my hands toward your holy sanctuary. Psalm 28.

Or this; "Come, everyone, and clap your hands for joy!
Shout to God with joyful praise!" Psalm 47

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:57 pm 
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In our own way, certainly we do. But if you find that sign of outward worship acceptable, why don't other such signs make the cut?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:05 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Don't tell AJW that we wipe our feet on a rainy day before entering the Church. He would find that an odd requirement of the Vatican and would see it as a Papal plot to take over America. Feet wiping isn't in the bible.
Here's an outward sign of worship commanded in Scripture, do Catholics do this? "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands"

Or what about this one; "Listen to my prayer for mercy as I cry out to you for help, "as I lift my hands toward your holy sanctuary. Psalm 28.

Or this; "Come, everyone, and clap your hands for joy!
Shout to God with joyful praise!" Psalm 47


No. Not once has a Catholic ever lifted holy hands in prayer, and we would certainly never clap with joy or praise God with our voices.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Mr.Rudeness wrote:
In our own way, certainly we do. But if you find that sign of outward worship acceptable, why don't other such signs make the cut?
The signs I listed were Biblical. Is kissing a statue or a painting in the Bible?

Not being Catholic, I am not obligated to follow their traditions. Why should I be criticized for prefering to worship as per the Biblical model as opposed to following Catholic traditions?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:50 pm 
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Of course, how could I forget? So I imagine you would also kneel, then.

The last two sentences were funny. The very point of the thread is to find out why you would object to such conspicuous displays of piety. Evidently, it is not the case that outward signs are prohibited.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:56 pm 
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ajw333 wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Don't tell AJW that we wipe our feet on a rainy day before entering the Church. He would find that an odd requirement of the Vatican and would see it as a Papal plot to take over America. Feet wiping isn't in the bible.
Here's an outward sign of worship commanded in Scripture, do Catholics do this? "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands"

Or what about this one; "Listen to my prayer for mercy as I cry out to you for help, "as I lift my hands toward your holy sanctuary. Psalm 28.

Or this; "Come, everyone, and clap your hands for joy!
Shout to God with joyful praise!" Psalm 47

I did all of these things today.

Your arrogance and lack of piety is disturbing.

Do you fear the Lord? Or do you presume that God will turn a blind eye because he is bound by OSAS.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:13 pm 
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Let's keep him on task. We've established, evidently, that outward signs in worship are permissible. So there is nothing wrong with them a priori. The determining criterion for what is permissible, presumably, is the Bible? Would Psalm 95 be obeyed, then, under ajw's standards? Ezekiel 9:8? And what of the woman Siggy mentions? Were her actions idolatrous or impious? And what is it that would expressly prohibit the kissing of a statue or image?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:45 pm 
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Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Let's keep him on task. We've established, evidently, that outward signs in worship are permissible. So there is nothing wrong with them a priori. The determining criterion for what is permissible, presumably, is the Bible? Would Psalm 95 be obeyed, then, under ajw's standards? Ezekiel 9:8? And what of the woman Siggy mentions? Were her actions idolatrous or impious? And what is it that would expressly prohibit the kissing of a statue or image?

Good job Rudy. You ran him off. :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:43 pm 
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DesertSailor wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
DesertSailor wrote:
Don't tell AJW that we wipe our feet on a rainy day before entering the Church. He would find that an odd requirement of the Vatican and would see it as a Papal plot to take over America. Feet wiping isn't in the bible.
Here's an outward sign of worship commanded in Scripture, do Catholics do this? "I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands"

Or what about this one; "Listen to my prayer for mercy as I cry out to you for help, "as I lift my hands toward your holy sanctuary. Psalm 28.

Or this; "Come, everyone, and clap your hands for joy!
Shout to God with joyful praise!" Psalm 47

I did all of these things today.
Before or after my post?


Quote:
Do you fear the Lord? Or do you presume that God will turn a blind eye because he is bound by OSAS.
I think I have a healthy fear of the Lord, but I also have a deep friendship with Him. He knows my heart and graciously forgives my indiscretions.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:55 pm 
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Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Let's keep him on task. We've established, evidently, that outward signs in worship are permissible. So there is nothing wrong with them a priori. The determining criterion for what is permissible, presumably, is the Bible? Would Psalm 95 be obeyed, then, under ajw's standards? Ezekiel 9:8?
No problem so far

Quote:
And what of the woman Siggy mentions? Were her actions idolatrous or impious? And what is it that would expressly prohibit the kissing of a statue or image?
Which woman?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:20 pm 
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At what point do you bow? For what reasons?


See page 1 of this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:08 am 
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Quote:
I did all of these things today.


Quote:
Before or after my post?


Before your post when I went to Mass.


Quote:
Quote:
Do you fear the Lord? Or do you presume that God will turn a blind eye because he is bound by OSAS.


Quote:
I think I have a healthy fear of the Lord, but I also have a deep friendship with Him. He knows my heart and graciously forgives my indiscretions.


How do you know if you don't go to confession and do your penance?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:54 am 
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DesertSailor wrote:
Quote:
I did all of these things today.


Quote:
Before or after my post?


Before your post when I went to Mass.


Quote:
Quote:
Do you fear the Lord? Or do you presume that God will turn a blind eye because he is bound by OSAS.


Quote:
I think I have a healthy fear of the Lord, but I also have a deep friendship with Him. He knows my heart and graciously forgives my indiscretions.


How do you know if you don't go to confession and do your penance?
What are you talking about? I go to confession every day.

Heb 4:14 "Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:11 am 
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Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Let's keep him on task. We've established, evidently, that outward signs in worship are permissible. So there is nothing wrong with them a priori. The determining criterion for what is permissible, presumably, is the Bible? Would Psalm 95 be obeyed, then, under ajw's standards? Ezekiel 9:8?
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
At what point do you bow? For what reasons?
I didn't say I bowed. I indicated that that I didn't have a problem with bowing because it is Biblical. Whilst were on that subject, lets see what we are supposed to bow to, a statue? A picture? An object perhaps?

Psalm 95:6 "Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"

Would you believe it, none of the above! We bow before the Lord Himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:35 am 
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ajw333 wrote:
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Let's keep him on task. We've established, evidently, that outward signs in worship are permissible. So there is nothing wrong with them a priori. The determining criterion for what is permissible, presumably, is the Bible? Would Psalm 95 be obeyed, then, under ajw's standards? Ezekiel 9:8?
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
At what point do you bow? For what reasons?
I didn't say I bowed. I indicated that that I didn't have a problem with bowing because it is Biblical. Whilst were on that subject, lets see what we are supposed to bow to, a statue? A picture? An object perhaps?

Psalm 95:6 "Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"

Would you believe it, none of the above! We bow before the Lord Himself.



So, why don't you kneel at your services?

I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:41 am 
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ajw333 wrote:
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Let's keep him on task. We've established, evidently, that outward signs in worship are permissible. So there is nothing wrong with them a priori. The determining criterion for what is permissible, presumably, is the Bible? Would Psalm 95 be obeyed, then, under ajw's standards? Ezekiel 9:8?
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
At what point do you bow? For what reasons?
I didn't say I bowed. I indicated that that I didn't have a problem with bowing because it is Biblical. Whilst were on that subject, lets see what we are supposed to bow to, a statue? A picture? An object perhaps?

Psalm 95:6 "Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"

Would you believe it, none of the above! We bow before the Lord Himself.



Either you do, or you don't. A straight answer would be great, if you can manage it. A comprehensible answer, however, will suffice.

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:58 am 
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Kneeling before a statue to pray is no different than kneeling before your bed to pray. It is the person to whom we pray, not the object itself. The object is simply a reminder of that person. Kneeling to pray isn't in and of itself worship. If it is, then any kneeling at all would constitute worship of whatever we're kneeling in front of. Even our shoes or our oven or a flat tire. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:19 pm 
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I remember asking a Lutheran Paster not to long ago....

"even though that lutheran and Catholic differ in the Eucharist we both believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist, does the people kneel down to the Eucharist?" His reply was "no"...I then asked him "if you truely believe in the Real Presense of the Eucharist and Christ is really truly there then why not?" all he could say was "good question"

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:48 pm 
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pax wrote:
ajw333 wrote:
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
Let's keep him on task. We've established, evidently, that outward signs in worship are permissible. So there is nothing wrong with them a priori. The determining criterion for what is permissible, presumably, is the Bible? Would Psalm 95 be obeyed, then, under ajw's standards? Ezekiel 9:8?
Mr.Rudeness wrote:
At what point do you bow? For what reasons?
I didn't say I bowed. I indicated that that I didn't have a problem with bowing because it is Biblical. Whilst were on that subject, lets see what we are supposed to bow to, a statue? A picture? An object perhaps?

Psalm 95:6 "Oh come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"

Would you believe it, none of the above! We bow before the Lord Himself.



So, why don't you kneel at your services?.
Because we aren't as religious as Catholics?

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 Post subject: Re: Why no kneeling?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:00 pm 
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pax wrote:
Yes! And do explain the significance of the 3 crosses we trace over ourselves.


Its a prayer normally prayed before reading the Gospel:

First cross traced on our forehead - saying:

May the Word of God be ever on my mind...

Second cross traced on over our lips -

on my lips...

Third cross traced on our heart -

and in my heart...

Amen.

Some add a fourth cross, the Signum Crucis,

Touch your fingers to your forehead, saying,

In the name of the Father,

To your heart -

and of the Son,

And to your left and right shoulders -

and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

Sincerely,

De Maria


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