Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?

SpenceOhana · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:54 pm

On another post Pax made a good point to me about a Bible-only Christian I was having a dialogue with to be a victim of circular reasoning. While in a dialogue with another Bible-only Christian I brought this up and here is his response:

"Firstly, philosophically speaking all systems are circular, there is no escaping it. The issue is not circularity, because some circularity only leads to a consistent worldview. The issues does your system save itself from internal critique. It doesn't.

If you claim I'm circular, you destroy your own position. Because, the Roman Catholic Church claims its the true Church on the basis of its infallible pronouncements and dogmas. Yet, we cannot know it, unless we accept the Church, and how do we know the Church is the Church? Because the Church says its the Church. So, you are stuck in the same circularity, however the Church claims that it has divine scripture on its side, yet scripture denies the Church so that the Church stands alone and is merely a human institution with high and lofty, nonsensical claims.

Its clear you are so set in assenting to the dogmatic claims of the Roman Catholic Church that you are unwilling to *think* regarding what the scripture says.

There are hundred if not thousands of Roman Catholic Churches that disagree on just about everything (liberal and traditionalist), and some very important matters. Listen to a few minutes of Catholic Answers Live, and you tell me that the Catholics calling in worried that their pastor is teaching error is not parallel to the Protestant disagreement over certain doctrines. You are not free to argue this on the basis that Rome is united, because Rome is as divided. Secondly as Protestants, we can gather and debate these issues, because we are together in the Gospel.

Not the Roman one. Why do you seem to imply that somehow your Church isn't merely one of the many that lay claims to being the true Church? Does not the Roman Catholic Church recognize the legitimacy of the Eastern Orthodoxy? Do they not claim the exact same thing? How do you know your Church is the one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church? You dont. Unless Rome tells you, its circular."

Any thoughts?

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:12 pm

We don't believe that the Church is the Church because the Church says She is the Church. We believe that the Church is the Church because Jesus said She is.

SpenceOhana · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:16 pm

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:

We don't believe that the Church is the Church because the Church says She is the Church. We believe that the Church is the Church because Jesus said She is.

But won't they argue that is according to how the Catholic Church interprets the Scripture?

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:14 pm

Probably. But they'll be wrong. The Church was the Church before there was ever a New Testament book written.

Kotton · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:41 pm

I've seen this claim that Catholic use circular reasoning from a number of non-Catholic boards. The fact is the Catholic Church is the TRUE CHURCH not because it makes infallible pronouncements and dogmas, but can make those pronouncements since it comes in a straight line from the Apostles.

Quote:

Does not the Roman Catholic Church recognize the legitimacy of the Eastern Orthodoxy?

Of course, because they also came in a straight line, and maintained Apolstolic sucession, although now being in schism.

Those other churches have a time in history for their beginning, although they claim to use the Scripture for their beliefs which came from Jesus Christ as they interpete it. His claims of "yet scripture denies the Church" and "unwilling to *think* regarding what the scripture says" prove his ignorance of Catholicism. There are hundred if not thousands of Roman Catholic Churches that disagree on just about everything is further evidence, because it is not 'The Church', but indivuals who disagree with the Church. This shows his inability to reason and understand what is evidence and what is opinion.

And so we see that his statement of 'circular reasoning' is of his own making.

Kotton

Peregrinator · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:08 pm

SpenceOhana wrote:

Does not the Roman Catholic Church recognize the legitimacy of the Eastern Orthodoxy?

Depends on what one means by "legitimacy."

Saralaughs · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:12 pm

Quote:

Depends on what one means by "legitimacy."

Legitimate - in accordance with the law and rules; logical, justifiable.

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:17 pm

It still depends. Their sacraments are objectively effective, as opposed to those of most other non-Catholic groups. Their bishops are true bishops with jurisdiction. But their separation from unity with the Holy See is not legitimate.

Saralaughs · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:22 pm

Quote:

But their separation from unity with the Holy See is not legitimate.

Well, yeah, but aside from obviously not being Roman Catholic, the Holy See does consider her to hold the valid truths that we hold.

Saralaughs

Obi-Wan Kenobi · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:24 pm

They don't hold papal primacy (obviously).

Saralaughs · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:36 pm

agreed - obviously! :wink:

MaxP · **Posted:** Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:53 pm

Yeah! Obviously!

Charles07 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:37 am

Fish · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:28 pm

SpenceOhana wrote:

If you claim I'm circular, you destroy your own position. Because, the Roman Catholic Church claims its the true Church on the basis of its infallible pronouncements and dogmas. Yet, we cannot know it, unless we accept the Church, and how do we know the Church is the Church? Because the Church says its the Church. So, you are stuck in the same circularity, however the Church claims that it has divine scripture on its side, yet scripture denies the Church so that the Church stands alone and is merely a human institution with high and lofty, nonsensical claims.[/i]

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I have a thought. Tell him if he wants to lead the charge for Christ, make sure the spear is pointed in the right direction. In Protestantism, Christians are saved by faith and if Catholicism produces faithful Christians--even if only a few--he cannot condemn Catholicism without risking his own salvation in the very same breath.

defender316 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:44 pm

Fish wrote:

SpenceOhana wrote:

If you claim I'm circular, you destroy your own position. Because, the Roman Catholic Church claims its the true Church on the basis of its infallible pronouncements and dogmas. Yet, we cannot know it, unless we accept the Church, and how do we know the Church is the Church? Because the Church says its the Church. So, you are stuck in the same circularity, however the Church claims that it has divine scripture on its side, yet scripture denies the Church so that the Church stands alone and is merely a human institution with high and lofty, nonsensical claims.[/i]

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I have a thought. Tell him if he wants to lead the charge for Christ, make sure the spear is pointed in the right direction. In Protestantism, Christians are saved by faith and if Catholicism produces faithful Christians--even if only a few--he cannot condemn Catholicism without risking his own salvation in the very same breath.

If Christ died for THE WORLD, then can you condemn anyone without risking your own salvation in the same breath? Is this circular logic or reasoning also? :scratch:

Maybe this person has been misjudged also. What "spear" is this person using? :wave

defender316 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:49 pm

Quote:

Let him heed what the blessed apostle Peter preaches, that sanctification by the Spirit is effected by the sprinkling of Christ's blood; and let him not skip over the same apostle's words, knowing that you have been redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your fathers, not with corruptible gold and silver but by the precious blood of Jesus Christ, as of a lamb without stain or spot. Nor should he withstand the testimony of blessed John the apostle: and the blood of Jesus, the Son of God, purifies us from every sin; and again, This is the victory which conquers the world, our faith. Who is there who conquers the world save one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God ? It is he, Jesus Christ who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony--Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. In other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the blood of redemption and the water of baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others. The reason is that it is by this faith that the catholic church lives and grows, by believing that neither the humanity is without true divinity nor the divinity without true humanity.

The Letter Of Pope Leo to Flavian, Bishop Of Constantinople
Council Of Chalcedon, 451 A.D.

:wave

pax · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:58 pm

The Church can prove her claim historically. Suddenly, there was this Church, and this Church grew until it encompassed the entire world. Various groups split off from her. The dates of their separations are all well documented. What cannot be documented is when the Roman Catholic Church split off from the mythical "true church". And the reason for that is because she didn't. She is the True Church. That is what history proves beyond all doubt. Look at all the great saints that went into foreign lands and converted the pagans and barbarians of Europe and the Middle East. All of them were commissioned and sent by a Pope. We still have the documentation to prove it.

Ergo, your friend cannot say he believes in the promises of Christ and that he does not believe the Roman Catholic Church is the True Church. Those statements are mutually exclusive. Christ promised His Church would be visible for all men to see and flock to, and He promised that His Church would never fail.

So, unless he can demonstrate the historical footprint of his own unique brand of so-called christianity for each century going right back to the first, he is a fool and his words are poison favorable to the enemies of Christ, for by saying them he invites all who hear to come forth and call Christ a liar.

May God have mercy on him.

defender316 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:39 pm

pax wrote:

So, unless he can demonstrate the historical footprint of his own unique brand of so-called christianity for each century going right back to the first, he is a fool and his words are poison favorable to the enemies of Christ, for by saying them he invites all who hear to come forth and call Christ a liar.

May God have mercy on him.

Yes. The Church does hold the Truth . When one is undergoing the evil of pain and suffering, one must embrace it as Christ did or deny one's faith or deny Christ. For embracing this pain and suffering Christ also defeated it. Since pain and suffering is part of the human condition, and at some point in each person's life, he/she must also choose.

I will not tolerate intolerance?

If I condemn another person, do I also condemn myself?

Saralaughs · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:54 pm

Quote:

I will not tolerate intolerance?

If I condemn another person, do I also condemn myself?

mmm hmmm - exactly, for that's what Christ himself taught.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged...."

Saralaughs

defender316 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:10 pm

defender316 wrote:

pax wrote:

So, unless he can demonstrate the historical footprint of his own unique brand of so-called christianity for each century going right back to the first, he is a fool and his words are poison favorable to the enemies of Christ, for by saying them he invites all who hear to come forth and call Christ a liar.

May God have mercy on him.

Yes. The Church does hold the Truth . When one is undergoing the evil of pain and suffering, one must embrace it as Christ did or deny one's faith or deny Christ. For embracing this pain and suffering Christ also defeated it. Since pain and suffering is part of the human condition, and at some point in each person's life, he/she must also choose.

I will not tolerate intolerance?

If I condemn another person, do I also condemn myself?

Quote:

--Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God;

Are Catholics victims of Circular Reasoning?

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